Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-24-2012, 04:20 PM   #51
zqzeek
journeyman
 
zqzeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Too far from a casino, NY
Posts: 204
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post
Do you guys change from optimal play just because you have made this same play too frequently in the past orbit or two?

For example, if you have cbet on good cbet boards twice in the past orbit and another good cbet board comes a third time?

Or if you get check-raised a bunch of times by different people in a smallish time frame, all of which are standard folds in a vacuum?

I always get nervous if I make the same play too many times and I usually deviate just for the hell of it. Should I just keep playing my game until I get exploited?
By definition it's best to deviate before you are exploited, but set that aside.

Two reasons not deviate from your line in the situations you describe:

(1) Your opponents really may not realize that you've made the same play repeatedly;

(2) Making the same play may make your action easier to predict, but unless you've shown down hands to observant players and they've been of similar strength, then making the same play repeatedly makes your cards harder to read (hence the idea of a standard pf raise, e.g.).

Of course if you are raising frequently and c-betting close 100%, your opponents will correctly put you on a wider range. But your response then should not be to shut down your c-bet in a situation that calls for it, but to change gears, play tighter for a while, and catch them when you raise and c-bet with stronger hand than your opponent will give you credit for. Ideal situation, no?
zqzeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 11:32 AM   #52
nilesharding
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kalamazoo MI
Posts: 223
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Table is the best I've ever played at, villains routinely calling any amount preflop. One good player on the button, the rest are super loose-passive but have lots of money. Stacks range from 400-1100. I have about 700.

1/2NL Straddled pot, 6 limpers to me in the SB with T T. I raise to 40, 4 limpers call. Pot is ~200.

Flop comes A T 4. Do I plan to get it in on by the turn or by the river? Chunks of ~160 flop, shove turn, or something like 100 flop, 225 turn , shove river?
nilesharding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 11:41 AM   #53
11t
Bo Pelini's #1 Fan
 
11t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spewville
Posts: 29,244
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilesharding View Post
Table is the best I've ever played at, villains routinely calling any amount preflop. One good player on the button, the rest are super loose-passive but have lots of money. Stacks range from 400-1100. I have about 700.

1/2NL Straddled pot, 6 limpers to me in the SB with T T. I raise to 40, 4 limpers call. Pot is ~200.

Flop comes A T 4. Do I plan to get it in on by the turn or by the river? Chunks of ~160 flop, shove turn, or something like 100 flop, 225 turn , shove river?
You got the board crushed with the only fear being some random belly buster but ppl likely have the ace. I'd go with 100 flop, 225 turn, shove river but if there are aggrotards then I'd bet like 80 on the flop, call a raise then try to ch/r the turn AI or ch/r the river.
11t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 12:01 PM   #54
AcePlayerDeluxe
Cant C Flat Aint My Tone
 
AcePlayerDeluxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,561
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilesharding View Post
Table is the best I've ever played at, villains routinely calling any amount preflop. One good player on the button, the rest are super loose-passive but have lots of money. Stacks range from 400-1100. I have about 700.

1/2NL Straddled pot, 6 limpers to me in the SB with T T. I raise to 40, 4 limpers call. Pot is ~200.

Flop comes A T 4. Do I plan to get it in on by the turn or by the river? Chunks of ~160 flop, shove turn, or something like 100 flop, 225 turn , shove river?
Was the pre flop raise a bluff or a value bet?.. fwiw i'm completing in the sb

Last edited by AcePlayerDeluxe; 01-25-2012 at 12:07 PM.
AcePlayerDeluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 12:22 PM   #55
nilesharding
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kalamazoo MI
Posts: 223
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
Was the pre flop raise a bluff or a value bet?.. fwiw i'm completing in the sb

Eh, preflop was for value. Definitely thought about completing this to play a smaller pot OOP, but thought I might be able to narrow the field some with a raise. Knew I'd be in a tough spot maybe 50% of the time but was going to be very happy with an overpair.
nilesharding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 12:27 PM   #56
TAOxEaglex
old hand
 
TAOxEaglex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,584
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I don't see any reason not to just pot it OTF and OTT. It's generally better to value bet bigger earlier anyway since a weak ace will often call one street and then fold the next.
TAOxEaglex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 04:17 PM   #57
Johnny 99
grinder
 
Johnny 99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 610
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilesharding View Post
Do I plan to get it in on by the turn or by the river? Chunks of ~160 flop, shove turn, or something like 100 flop, 225 turn , shove river?
In these hands that play a lot like limit pots, i.e., 5 way. They will likely call huge bets on flop in relation to pot when they may not on turn. I would get the money in now when they may call with a bd fluch draws and gutshot draws--$150-200. Then shove turn unless 4 or ten pairs--in which case have fun.
Johnny 99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 06:07 PM   #58
PokahBlows
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny 99 View Post
Here's a general question. Say there are 4 limpers in a 1/3 game, sb completes, you complete in BB w/ Jd4h.

$16 in pot after rake and Jackpot. Flop is Jc3c7d

SB checks, hero???

I have tried a number of ways to handle this. Would love to see what forum does here.
Betting here is what loose passive players do. You can't bet blind when ranges are wide. So what you do is, check, if the flop gets checked threw you bet turn. If someone bets evaluate the bet size. If its pot/near pot fold, if its a weak bet call if a draw comes in or over card just c/f.

I even do this play with a hand like Ace meh kicker in limp pots.

Betting out is just asking to play a weird hand you will have to pot control ott.
PokahBlows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 09:03 AM   #59
TAOxEaglex
old hand
 
TAOxEaglex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,584
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Except that there are 18 scare cards that will make you want to give up OTT. Also, a 7 could call you and any club draw will call you so you want value.

Loose passive players check/call.
TAOxEaglex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 09:50 AM   #60
Johnny 99
grinder
 
Johnny 99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 610
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post
Except that there are 18 scare cards that will make you want to give up OTT. Also, a 7 could call you and any club draw will call you so you want value.

Loose passive players check/call.
I think value is tricky here. It's nice to have a good idea whose getting the value.

I think PokahBlows may be correct here, but my present inclination lies with TAO's view. The games are full of people who will call $15 in an $18 pot just for fun. It's really hard to know where you're at oop when you bet top pair for 66% of pot and get called in 3 spots. Now the pot is getting big and we do not want to go to war without a kicker. I have started experimenting a bit with overbets. Basically I round the pot up to the nearest $5 and add a red chip. So a $12 pot gets a $20 bet. If I'm called in a pot like this I'm done putting money in without improvement or a strong reason.

So far (like 15 or so times) the overbet is picking up a large majority of pots oop. About what I would expect that my hand is best otf.
Johnny 99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 10:13 AM   #61
Scott Dobos
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: blogging, twitter, Boston
Posts: 202
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I play HU cash only. I consider myself a full ring-fish. Thanks for taking it easy on me.

Playing international, the stakes are equivalent of 2/5 USD.

Fish (He's bad, he overplays his hands, but rarely 'bluffs'. He will turn 77 into a bluff on a T high board, but he wont bluff with like QJ on a T high board. He kind of hates calling 3bets, but will call any pre flop single raise (of any size). He seems to be incredibly wealthy given his play style.

Villain 1 super tight nit.

I am $1600 deep. Fish has me covered.

utg raises to $20. fish calls $20, 2 other $20 callers, and i have AKo on the button. I would flat here if 2 others didn't call already. So I raise to $120. Villain 1 jams for $140 from sb, fish flats, other 2 fold.

So pot is $480 OTF.
Flop= 852r
Fish bets $200
Is this a super easy fold?

Hand 2:
Same fish in the hand, and different villain. Villain here is pretty solid from what I've seen, although he calls me everytime I raise pre flop for some reason (100%) (I'm only white westerner at the table fwiw).
I play a ton of hands IP in limped pots, people are limping more than raising, and well, i'll take some cheap flops multi-way with these aggro, bad, deep stacked players.

I'm now $1800 deep. Fish has me covered. Villain 2 is $500 deep. I have Qc7c on btn
Flop is a family pot, 9 players. Pot is ~36.
flop is Kc9c2h. Fish bets $50, I flat $50, and villain 2 raises to $105 from BB. Fish re raises to $240 and I've got myself in a pickle. So I'm incredibly deep with fish, and his range here isn't entirely known. I'd say at the very worst he has a Kx type hand with my read, and obviously better. My issue is not having the nut flush draw and getting it in real awful, especially with a solid guy behind me, likely going to be re-raising the fish if he raised from the BB there.
So my thought is if I do call the fish $240, I will also have to call the villain 2 re raise again to ~$500.

What's your play?

Hand 3: (just thought of this one again).
stacks, I'm covered by both, and I have $1800. Same fish, different villain (likely best player at the table. He usually plays 5/10+ and I have mad respect for his game, and I try to avoid playing pots with him as the aggressor if possible). Another limped pot, I limp button w/ JTo (Villain 3 (best player villain) raises BB to $36, fish calls, I call. rest fold
Flop pot is something like $122 or so. Flop is 892r. Villain 3 bets $60, fish calls $60, and I call $60. turn is 4d (bringing diamond draw). Villain 3 bets $150, fish calls, I call.

straight forward hand? Don't think i can raise at any point here profitably...

Last edited by Scott Dobos; 01-26-2012 at 10:39 AM. Reason: one more hand
Scott Dobos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 10:26 AM   #62
Johnny 99
grinder
 
Johnny 99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 610
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Dobos View Post
Is this a super easy fold?

What's your play?
Hand 1: Yeah, You don't want to be the guy who loses 300 BB bc he caught a K on the turn.

Hand 2: I would hate to lose 300 bbs when my Q high flush got there.
Johnny 99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 01:29 PM   #63
agnostia
old hand
 
agnostia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: florida
Posts: 1,238
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

2/5NL

Hero has been sitting less than an orbit. Playing at a card room that I rarely frequent, so no reads on villain other than this... villain just doubled another guy up and apparently got sucked out on because he was bitchin and appears to be on tilt. Villain does not reload.

Villain: utg - $200
Hero: button - $500 ... 9h 9c

Villain raises to $60... a huge pfr. Seems to be a tilt raise.
Folds to hero, hero raises to $200, villain surprisingly calls.

Reasonable line on my part?
agnostia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 02:00 PM   #64
TAOxEaglex
old hand
 
TAOxEaglex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,584
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

A villain being on tilt doesn't preclude him from getting good cards. This is just a fold with him being so shortstacked.
TAOxEaglex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 02:01 PM   #65
Pay4Myschool
Haz Chuck Norris 4 Dad
 
Pay4Myschool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Michigan / California
Posts: 7,474
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

ya, you cant just call. Shove or fold given stack sizes. If he is truley tilted, shoving is a fine play, just keep in mind its marginally +EV so have a BR. Folding and shoving have to be super close. Call is terrible.
Pay4Myschool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 02:17 PM   #66
11t
Bo Pelini's #1 Fan
 
11t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spewville
Posts: 29,244
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

If the guy is over 50 I fold the 99
11t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 02:18 PM   #67
agnostia
old hand
 
agnostia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: florida
Posts: 1,238
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

^ agree.

Shove = fold >>>>> call.
agnostia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 02:19 PM   #68
TAOxEaglex
old hand
 
TAOxEaglex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,584
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

At best it's a race, at worst you are crushed. Don't really like the shove.
TAOxEaglex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 02:25 PM   #69
11t
Bo Pelini's #1 Fan
 
11t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spewville
Posts: 29,244
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post
At best it's a race, at worst you are crushed. Don't really like the shove.
Yeah against a range of like 77+ AJs+ you are a 45/55 dog

However, in game if the guy is like REALLY steaming (set just lost to runner runner flush or something) and I'm closing the action I shove here 100% of the time.
11t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 02:25 PM   #70
agnostia
old hand
 
agnostia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: florida
Posts: 1,238
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Tilted fish never tilt shove 9Ts, Ax, etc for 40bb? I think they have worse often enough to justify a shove for 40bb effective. It's thin, for sure though. Obv, we'd rather get a fold than a call
agnostia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 03:29 PM   #71
Johnny 99
grinder
 
Johnny 99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 610
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Some times you have to give a little to get a little. I would look left before I made it $200 though...
Johnny 99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2012, 01:24 PM   #72
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 15,609
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Saturday night $1/2 table. Typical LP play. Lots of l/c and flatting of raises. Very little to no 3-betting.

V1: Stereotypical middle-aged Asian gambloor ($200)

V2: Thinking LAG. C-bets are often overbets, but tends to have real hands if active on turn and river. ($900)

Hero: Pretty solid image, though perhaps seen as over-aggressive, due to recently betting TP three streets in three recent-ish hands (took one down OTR without showing, won one showdown, lost one showdown) ($500)

V3: Drinking rec player who overplays his hands, gives off huge amount of tells and tends to overplay his hands ($120)

V1 limps from EP
V2 Raises to $15 on the button
Hero: looks down at QQ in SB.

V3 in BB and V1 have cut out calling chips in hand. For V3 this is a 100% reliable tell that he is calling if bet size hasn't changed by the time it gets to him. For V1 this is maybe 70% true.

Hero raises to ???
Garick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2012, 01:49 PM   #73
PokahBlows
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,005
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I would flat vs the lag. If we 3bet we possibly scare him off. He often overbets or cbets often, so the turn will be hu no need to raise pre oop. Easy call and c/r favorable flops.
PokahBlows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2012, 02:02 PM   #74
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 15,609
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
I would flat vs the lag.
We really want to play OOP vs 4 players with QQ?

If we flat, BB is 100% calling and V1 is 90% calling (percentage goes up from original read, since now the pot will be too juicy for him to resist).

This doesn't even include the issue of being 250BBs deep with the LAG and leaving him the initiative.
Garick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2012, 02:17 PM   #75
PokahBlows
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
We really want to play OOP vs 4 players with QQ?

If we flat, BB is 100% calling and V1 is 90% calling (percentage goes up from original read, since now the pot will be too juicy for him to resist).

This doesn't even include the issue of being 250BBs deep with the LAG and leaving him the initiative.
Dude go with your read. The information is in your op. So
I know you had it at the table. Read and react: villain is a lag pot is going to be huge on the flop, lag overbets /bets strong no matter what. Then you invest a little oop could c/r flop.

LAG is never folding pre he is in position. Pot will be bloated and he gets to see how you react to the flop. Not a good plan oop.
PokahBlows is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online