My read here is that your average 1/3 passive fish player doesn't get up above a 1k stack. If they run up that stack they are either a good player or a maniac who got lucky. Didn't seem like a maniac seeing as he found the isolation with 88s previously. I felt he was capable of bluffing so I called flop and then I called the turn because the Q is a blank basically, what check/raise bluffs does he raise that have a Q in them?

There are certainly players who I would snap fold 88s against a c/r in this spot but this guy wasn't one of him even in the limited time I played with him

My plan was to fold the river because I didn't think he would triple with a bluff.

FWIW He checked the 10 of hearts and I checked back and he said nice call and I was good vs AK. Am I being results oriented here?

I'm sorry, you're gonna bet fold everything AA-88 on this board versus this action?

Comparing AA & 88 in this hand as near equal is waaaay off.

Well ok, there's some difference between AA vs 88; sometimes he's value raising a hand we beat with AA but not with 88 (ex. JJ) and we're going to hate less turn cards / less cards he can accidentally back into. But if he's like most flop check/raisers and continues betting the turn, he's basically repping trips+ and we either beat that or we don't.

But mostly I simply don't get myself in this spot. I bet hands I'm comfortable bet/folding, and if I'm not, I don't. So I check back AA far more than 88 here due to that.

GimoG

You don’t think people ever raise flop and continue on turn with flush and straight draws? I see that all the time

Yeah, premium pairs are a totally different story from 88. But I don't get why we want to passively put in significant money, somewhat deep, with a marginal hand that lacks robust equity. I can just as easily check flop, call blank turns, and play a way smaller pot.

I do understand that 88 wants to clean up it's equity on this flop, but I feel like the reasons for checking are better.

. I decide it's my time to go home, [/QUOTE]

Hi kontulai. Fishy MAWG here who doesn't want to give anymore opinions out of fear of saying something fishy. Couldn't help myself though, after reading that comment. It's such a defeatist mindset at the table.
I don't know about the play being wrong or right but don't think in those terms. If the session isn't going well and you feel you're on tilt, get up and leave. You'll always have a chance to get your money back next session.

To approach this from a slightly different viewpoint:

If our plan is to mostly just bet/call the flop check/raise with our overpair and then call down blank runouts, how does that plan differ from the plan of the biggest fish at the table?

Bet/calling TP hands just always seems like the nut worst line to me (which is always the line the worst player at the table takes).

Gno?G

Yeah very few Vs are bluff raising with draws in low stakes games. It's an easy bet-fold with the overpair most of the time facing a flop raise. You just have to know your V and make the right adjustment. From history with this V, he may just be savvy enough to make a move. But I think of all the overpairs, 88 can be let go...it's just too vulnerable on later streets.

overgeneralize much?

Things like live tells, bet sizing, run-outs (remember we have a backdoor straight draw), etc will determine if we continue on. Calling flop isn't a total disaster. But when serious money goes in, admittedly it'll be tougher to continue on with 88. But saying the B/C line is "always the line the worst player at the table takes" is lazy, simplified and incorrect thinking.

cbet flop to 40-60, ap call xr and decided on river. Likely calling any non-club, Ace or K (AcXc, KcJc and other KcXc might exists given xr). I don't expect to be shoen and 2x here, and not sure if V plays Tx this way, so wondering if his range is back door FD heavy as his semi bluffs, 77 KTcc ATcc, JTcc etc type hand.

Ok, with that in my mind, what are you doing now on this turn? The expected decent bet came (we're expecting this 90% of the time, right?), the draw didn't complete and yet an overcard came (we're expecting this a decent amount of the time too?), we didn't bink one of our few outers that gives us a backdoor, and now what? If you're folding here a decent amount, I think you're better off folding the flop / not betting it to begin with.

GimoG

It's a tough spot for sure with 88. Flop may well be a check back but generally I'm betting here to clean up equity.

Turn looks fairly sizable so we may need to fold barring reads/tells. The issue is the villain is repping a narrow value range (3 combos of 55, 2 combos each of A6/76/86, and two 56 combos). Meanwhile there are plenty NFD and stuff like 89 that are trying to rep a scare card (not that the Q is scary but w/e).

The bigger our pair the more apt we should be to continue because v may also be overplaying an overpair that we beat. 88 may be a fold to the x/r after some additional thought. It's close for sure.

My issue was more with your broad generalizations of 1) 88=AA in this spot, and B) bet/call is always a fish line. It is in certain games where bluffing frequencies are nil.

However unless I missed something, we dont have enough info to make that assessment. Its probably a fold with 88 but ditching the strongest parts of our range (at least on the flop and/or turn) is likely a mistake.

About an hour after the AK hand posted above (I folded, she showed QQ), I got my turn with the maniac.

V is a guy who showed up at 1/2nl around 4-5am with a stack of black and two stacks of green ($3k). Not sure if he was headed for 5/10 and didn't get a seat or what. He put $300 in green on the table and the rest in his pockets. He's loose and aggressive, opening wide, calling wide. Between aggression and catching cards, he's built up a big stack. I have ~$1200, and he covers me by several hundred.

V limps, I raise to $15 with AKo. One other caller, V calls. (Pot $45)

Flop xATr. V checks, I bet $30, other caller folds, V calls. ($105)

Turn 2, I think making a two-flush on board. V checks, I bet $95, V calls. ($295)

River J (no flush). V tanks. I can see the wheels turning...counting the pot, reviewing the action, stacking some chips, unstacking them... I'm sure I have the better hand, and I'm calling if he bets.

Finally he checks. I consider for a moment—and here's the questionable point—and check behind.

I should have bet again, of course, but I was wary of reopening the action to someone who could so easily put me on the spot for my whole stack. I didn't really think he'd x/r, but there was enough of a chance that I didn't want to risk it. Sense, or nonsense?

The problem with that ‘approach’ is that it ignores the questions that can make us better poker players, which we get to by playing vs our opponents ranges which we build via reads based off the information we notice and anticipate through watching them, their play and tendencies and then adapting our play accordingly.

It’s ‘colour by numbers’ and that’s fine if you're happy to play statically and if the colour by numbers is 'more right than wrong' as it definitely is with your game, then it definitely reduces the potential damage from being badly wrong but it also caps our development and ability to progress and improve.

Tight passive table. 1/3. MD Live.

Hero has KQo in MP and isolates one MAWG MP limper to $14. In a previous hand V called a CO open on BTN with QQ and stacked V on a J-high flop (V had AJ). Hero is eff stack with $115. Pot $21.

Flop: Kd-3c-7c. V checks, hero bets $10, V calls. Pot $41.

Turn: 2d. V donks $45. Obviously if we call we’re not folding any rivers with $45 behind. Hero?

Thanks,
DT

so villain started the hand with $100?

Hero is effective stack with $115 to start. V covers.

One more. Hero is at a tight passive table. Four limpers in straddle and hero has AThh in BB and makes it $36. Only BTN (YWG) calls. Hero had $110 to start the hand. V covers. Pot $101.

Flop: T-4-6r. Hero? Is pre a raise or just overlimp?

Thanks,
DT

Playing shortstacked is probably a bad idea especially if you don't have specific knowledge of how to do it.

Just shove preflop. Straddle + 4 limpers + blinds = $34, which is more than enough to just shove (think about how you'd play sitting 10/20 with $110). As played, shove the flop. You don't really want to try to exploit here, you need to protect your shoving range which will have a bunch of stuff like AK and AQ in it.

The KQ hand, bet a bit more OTF and shove turn.

KQ gii. AT bet 25.
You're pretty much always gii when flop top pair at this stack depth.

I agree with ChrisV in both hands. In the ATs hand, I like an overlimp better than a standard raise, but I prefer shoving out of all available options. In the KQo hand, you have to commit with such a short stack. Just bet 20 or 25 otf to set up a pot sized turn shove.

I mostly open dump KQo in MP now, even with a shortstack (especially at tight tables where a raise will mostly limit the Kx/Qx hands to better ones and yet we'll have to stack off with our dominated TP postflop due to small SPR). Not a horrendous result (HU, in position, with initiative), but I typically wouldn't expect it at my table.

SPR is just under 5 and board is somewhat drawy. I consider myself committed (although slightly uncomfortably so), and would simply PSB+ the flop to setup a turn shove. If the board didn't contain a flush draw I'd be cooler with the smaller bet x 3 plan.

Weird spot on turn. Due to preflop and flop, we really should consider ourselves committed, and nothing changed on the turn card. But the turn action certainly gives me pause. Still, for these stacks, I likely continue thru with my commitment decision and shove (which would have been made trivial had we left ourselves with just a PSB left on the turn with a bigger flop bet).

GimoG

I think there are a few preflop options. We could toss in $3 and simply ~nutmine giving ourselves approximately 45:1 IO. With all this dead money which is relatively large to our super small stack we could simply shove. Or we could raise as we did to setup a ~PSB shove on any flop. I don't hate any option.

Trivial flop shove as played.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Who straddled matters. Is straddle a passive player? Then limp and eval on the flop after he checks his option. If the passive player raises to $35-40, then it's an easy fold.

If the straddle is likely to bet, I don't mind raising here with the intent to pretty much get it in on any flop (bonus points if flop has a heart or a T)

I mean we're super short here, ~20BB, we block other Ax hands and no one raised the straddle, which means our kicker might actually be good in case an A comes, so getting it in preflop just for the table image isn't horrible either.

As played - easy flop shove, it's not even a PSB