1/3. $320 effective. V1 is a competent looking younger guy. V2 is a 60-something in sunglasses & a ball cap. No history w/ either player.

Hero (HJ): Q Q

fold, UTG+1 c $3, V1 r $13, V2 3b $45, Hero ???

I fold this pretty easily as 95 percent of 1/3 villains really doesent 3 bet anything else than QQ+ AK, and most old guys doesent even 3 bet AK.

If i am gonna continue with QQ here or stackoff, i would need concrete reads that it would be +EV to do so= i would need to know that villain is 3 betting wider than the normal nutted range that most people still do.

I can’t fold here. Maybe I’m a fish but I ant range villains this tight just because they’re older. I just flat and hope V1 comes along and then basically set mine but if not proceed with extreme caution

How can you setmine for $45 preflop with a 320 stack Feely? You just cant do that profitably and you know that.

If you call and involves yourself in the hand here its got to be because you range villain wider- or worse, you agree with my ranging but ignores it and still proceed with the hand.

Like what are you doing on a 3-3-8 flop and villains C bets a big bet? What do you do on K or A high boards(folds i guess?), what do you do on 6-7-10 board facing a C bet? The pot is already very big due to the preflop 3 bet, so the bets postflop quickly goes overboard aka it makes our chances of pot controlling or slowing down postflop trying to get to showdown very small.

Sorry didn’t delete that sentence and set mine not the right term but I’m not folding to a 3 bet from an unknown. My games play different maybe but AK, JJ and often AQ as value hands plus spazz often 3 bets here.

I will proceed with caution post of course but I’m calling one street on those low run outs too

Thanks for the input guys. I think both suggestions have merit :

Table playing on the weak/loose side. 2-3 taking a flop in raised pots, 4-8 people limping along each hand, and someone often taking it down before showdown. Villain new to the table. MAWG, shuffling chips, reg-vibes w/ ballcap & headphones, $210 effective. Other villain involved OTB has me covered @ $330, and is loose/passive/weak/casual. I feel like we don't have the direct/implied odds to call this, and shoving feels like a spew against what amounts to sets/2PR/NFD, maybe spazzy 77-88. Thanks. OTTH:

Hero (MP): K T

Villain (EP) limps $3, Hero r $15, fold x 3, BTN calls $15, fold x 2, Villain calls

Flop ($44): 6 3 2

V x, H b $30, BTN c $30, V r $100, Hero ???

You can’t reasonably call and fold turn with him only having $100 behind and the pot being at least $270. If you are going to continue you might as well rip it and fold out button’s equity and maybe get the occasional fold out of the limper.

If we treat his bet as a shove we need at least 36% equity to get it in here. So we for sure know he has 22,33, and 66. Let’s also throw in A3-A5dd and 45s. Our equity is now at 26%. If we throw in just one overpair less than TT we are at 33%. If he’s only jamming sets and 45s we are at 27.7%.

Button calling might mean some of our diamonds are dead since he shouldn’t have a ton of made hands that connect with this board.

All of this to say I’m not sure whether it’s a shove or fold but since I did the work I figured I might as well post this. Neither option is terrible. Comes down to how much I think he’s spazzing with one pair.

For me, this is just way too early to be raising. We still have most of the table (6 players!) still to act (4 of those who will have position on us) and we have no clue how many people like (or really like) their hand. If table is passive and easy and perhaps payoffy postflop I wouldn't hate an overlimp, but otherwise I just fold.

I probably bet smaller on the flop, like 1/2 PSB. Any reasonable bet will be played against the exact same way (they're doing what they're doing to almost any bet), so let's do this for as cheap as possible to see if we can take it down, plus give ourselves better odds (especially if someone chooses a poor raise sizing).

As played, without reads I might lean to sigh folding although that does seem nitty. We should have no FE against a guy who has already shoved in half his stack, and hands that are check/raising multiple people for stacks (including an MP raiser who has continued on the flop) typically ain't hands like just ~TP that we are doing great against. Course, it is a bit opponent dependent, especially since $210 stacks can get in kinda easily for some, and there is a crapload of dead money in the pot, and he might be doing this with a draw himself, or perhaps something like TT (???). Might be close, but methinks in this spot we get our money in as a 3:1 dog quite often here.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yeah. Pitch suited Broadways pre. If it's not aces, it's not aces. Or open to 15 like OP. Tough one.

AP, I like a cawl of the check raise, we need to hit, so let's bring along the button.

Thanks for the thoughtful analysis:



Also, im finding myself in awkward preflop spots such as these often & don't think I've been playing them optimal. What's the best line here? There seems to be a strong push in the meta toward "3b or fold" in the SB, but not sure that has much relevance @ 1/3. All options seem to have serious drawbacks, so I lean towards folding. Thoughts?

H#1/H#2 V is an ABC reg opens ~ 12.5%-15% pre. H#3 is a semi-LAG pre/TAG post & opens ~ 15-20% pre from EP/MP. H#4 V is a semi loose/semi passive probably has ~ 8%-10% ISO frequency. All situations are ~ 100BB deep.

H#1

Hero (SB): K J

Villain r $15 (EP), call x 3, Hero ???

H#2

Hero (SB): 8 7

Villain r $13 (EP), call x 3, Hero ???

H#3

Hero (SB): K J

Villain (EP) r $15, call x 3, Hero ???

H#4

Hero (SB): A J

5 players limp $3, Villain (BTN) r $15, Hero ???

Hand 1 fold
Hand 2 fold
Hand 3 fold
Hand 4, raise to 55

Thanks. Why 3b H#4 though?

imo it’s too good to fold to a button iso range and flatting oop is too difficult to get value

The other three hands there is more dead money but you’re facing an EP raise and your hands are a lot weaker

Hand 1 & 3 are obviously similar scenarios, just a different opener. Without any other information, aside from on the openers, they're probably both folds. With more information, hand 3 may be worth a bluff squeeze, but there's nothing wrong with folding your SB pre in spots that feel marginal.

Hand 2 I'd pretty much always fold. Our implied odds aren't bad, but we are OOP, can get coolered a decent amount going to the flop 5-6ways even when we make flushes/trips/2pr, and the SPR of ~4-5 shapes up fairly poorly for the marginal hands/draws we will make on a lot of flops.

Hand 4 is a good 3-bet because it's highly unlikely BTN has nutted hands with the small raise after all these limpers, so we just pick up the ~$34 in the middle quite often. I'd probably make it 60-65. Calling is also +EV but I think the 3-bet is noticeably better.

Uncapped 1/3 underground game. Flop spot against older reg. He has OMC tendencies, but is not a total nit in every aspect of the game. Hero have lot of history with this villain, been playing with him regurarly for the last 3-4 years. He is generally tight passive, loves to trap big hands by just check-calling and letting other people valueown themself to him. Although he is capable of doing som weird buttonclicking from time to time also, so can be tricky to play against if he is getting creative.

Two limps from MP, hero raises up A10 suited on the button to $18. Old reg villain calls from the BB, both limpers folds wich is pretty unusual. Anyway, check to me i C-bet $20 around half pot on the 2-2-10 rainbow flop. Villain minraises me to $40, having $130 behind.

Call, ship get it in or fold?

Shipping sull get him to fold all his bluffs / worse hands and call with all better.

Either flat or fold. Probably flat and call turn. There isn't really enough info to say though.

Just flat and basically call all turns I think?

+1 not folding top top to the tricky guy

This guy is representing ~ 1 combination of A2s, and is known to slowplay premiums. I can't say for sure what he's doing this with (possible JTs+ overplay, AQ w/ backdoor FD type hand, maybe?), but definitely calling down for stacks.

Thanks guys, guess we are on the same page then. Just kind of a linecheck, because i got tilted after the tricky old guy showed up with KK after we got it in on the low brick turn.

I havent seen that kind of fishy trappy play pre OOP with big pocket pairs in a couple of years from him, so i discounted those combos heavily when i ranged him. Guess he still have some in his range, jeeeze.

With around 50 blinds effective against him i dont see myself doing anything else but going with it on the 2-2-10 flop with A10 though. But when i get shown freaking KK, the little voice in my brain asks if i should be able to get away.

I was thinking when you posted that he may have JJ there some of the time but hard to put him on KK. Everybody gets outplayed sometimes. It’s fine

The more I play, the more I appreciate hands that make the nuts and the more I hate hands that don't, especially OOP, unless the field is full of payoff wonders with lol hands.

So I would now nit fold the first three (more likely to call if on the Button although still thinking folding is fine), and flat the last one (assuming all the limpers will follow suit) to nutmine (and punish those who are playing KJcc / 87cc / etc.).

GcluelessNLnoobG

My latest thing I'm getting flamed for in the forums is wondering whether hands like AJ/AT/KQ should be raised in LP after 2 limpers, especially with shortish stacks. I'm not convinced they should (but I'm still fence sitting).

You know me: if I'm comfortable folding to a check/raise, I bet/fold; if I'm not, I check behind. So if I'm betting, I'm folding, although admittedly that seems to suck here because he would probably mostly just let us valuetown ourselves with JJ+, so I dunno.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Thanks again.


Here are a handful more. All versus unknowns, 100BB.

H#1

Hero (SB): A J

V (EP) r $17, call x 2, Hero ???

H#2

Hero (BB): A J

V (EP) r $15, fold x 7, Hero???

H#3

Hero (MP): A Q

V (EP) r $15, Hero ???

H#4

Hero (BB): A Q

V (EP) r$15, call x 3, Hero ???