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Old 03-27-2018, 12:16 PM   #5176
Petrucci
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
You played this hand very well. Just a cooler because he was tilted and made a poor call given what you were repping.
Yeah, i mean my turnraise/stackoff range have second pair crushed- so its obviously a longterm losing play by him. He is a huge loser longterm also in the game, so no surprise really.

Also, if i dont turn the flushdraw- i think the play is to just call with the open ender, because its probably getting too thin to raise/stackoff with just the 8 outs open ender. But once i turn the flushdraw and so many additional outs i think the aggressive route should be perfectly fine.
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:57 PM   #5177
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Yeah, i mean my turnraise/stackoff range have second pair crushed- so its obviously a longterm losing play by him. He is a huge loser longterm also in the game, so no surprise really.

Also, if i dont turn the flushdraw- i think the play is to just call with the open ender, because its probably getting too thin to raise/stackoff with just the 8 outs open ender. But once i turn the flushdraw and so many additional outs i think the aggressive route should be perfectly fine.
Completely agree. Seems like he is going to pay you off regardless given his tilt factor, so with less draw equity, I think calling with just 8 outs is definitely superior. In that case (where you don' t have hearts in your hand at least), it might also afford you the oppty to bluff the flush if it comes and you detect disgust or annoyance, etc. Can't do that if you shove turn and get called.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:33 PM   #5178
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Cassiuscheqqes View Post
What's the loosest holding you'd open here?
AK/AQs/99 or so.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:34 PM   #5179
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

maybe could open smaller pocket pairs if 3bet odds are very low and multi-way odds are very high, but that would be pretty marginal
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:22 PM   #5180
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Bad runout but I’m at the top of my range with aces against a guy playing a wide range pre. Seems kind of fishy, he bet flop and called a big turn check jam against an old guy with A5o on 842-A. Old guy had 84 but villain got there.

1/3 live

Open to $10 in the LJ, hero raises AhAd to $30 he calls. I’ve seen villain open to $15 and $18 so I doubt his $10 open is a strong range.

Flop:856 two hearts.

Pot:$60.

How should we be sizing on wet boards in 3 bet pots where we dont have many nutted hands in our range?

Hero bets $30, villain calls.

Pot:$120

Turn: offsuit 7.

Villain checks, hero checks it back.

River:

Offsuit 3.

Villain bets $85

Hero calls.

Once I check turn maybe I have a couple of combos of 99 and sets but AA is the best hand I show up with (although a hand like KK without a heart makes a better call) and he should have some idea I am overpair heavy here. I guess I could just call the AA without a heart as a default.

Last edited by Badreg2017; 03-27-2018 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:53 PM   #5181
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

1/3 live.

V1BB ($300) is loose agro. Would be competent if he wasn’t so insanely wide pre.

V2 Straddle ($180) is spew monster who has been bombing it pre. I’ve seen him open 93s to $20, limp jam A2s for $150, etc. I would say he’s opening about 1/3 of hands.

Hero is UTG/UTG+1 (idk how to count the straddle) with AQss and limps, BB makes it $21, straddle calls. I thought BB would go bigger with his premiums based on his other preflop sizings.

Hero makes it $100.

Should I be more polarized with this sizing and instead make it $65-$80 here? Even against villain’s this loose should I be more polarized in general when I LRR and just flat?
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:08 AM   #5182
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Given the kind of player villain is I probably throw theoretical ideas out the window, so I'd look at this more as a problem of what to do with this specific hand than what to do with my ranges.

I'm inclined to fold this because to call I have to believe two things: that this guy checked the turn on a turn card that presents a great betting opportunity, and also that OTR he decided to turn a one pair hand into a bluff (because I think the chances he has no pairs are extremely slim). I think the latter is unlikely to be true in isolation (most LLSNL players are not capable of turning made hands into bluffs) and I also feel like a guy aggressive enough to do that OTR will mostly just bet the turn. So I want to fold, but I think it's close.
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:12 AM   #5183
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

On second hand, limp reraise seems fine. I don't actually hate just shoving, there's like 45ish in the pot. If blinds were 15/30, $300 effective is a 10BB shove, so it's not that outrageous. The problem with making it 100 is that if V2 flats and plays fit-or-fold he probably won't really be making a mistake. I mean he will against your entire range, clearly, but against this hand in particular, not really. I think it's OK to play exploitatively and just shove this hand but make it like 80 with AA etc.
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:21 AM   #5184
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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On second hand, limp reraise seems fine. I don't actually hate just shoving, there's like 45ish in the pot. If blinds were 15/30, $300 effective is a 10BB shove, so it's not that outrageous. The problem with making it 100 is that if V2 flats and plays fit-or-fold he probably won't really be making a mistake. I mean he will against your entire range, clearly, but against this hand in particular, not really. I think it's OK to play exploitatively and just shove this hand but make it like 80 with AA etc.
Hey, just wanted to say thanks for giving feedback on the hands! I’m working hard to improve my game and always appreciate your help.

H1 I generally agree with you, my default is to fold and I don’t tend to worry about exploitability, but went for the soul read, called, and was good against J8o. Was hoping it wasn’t outrageously optimistic to call.

H2: Makes sense. As played Bb folded QJo and straddle folded whatever nonsense he likely had.
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:30 AM   #5185
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I looked again at H2 and I think the way you played it is good. Maybe a slightly smaller raise. That way you can fold if V1 jams. If you don't want to fold if V1 jams, then jamming yourself is probably better.
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:49 PM   #5186
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
...

Then this hand occurs. There's a 15 open from a nit/tag (mostly nit) call from mp, our V 3b to 45, and we have KcKs and 4b to 150, folds to V he insta call. about 230 eff stacks remaining, F AdTd3h, V ships. H tanked for a minute knowing I am beat.. knowing I am behind... but somehow I called...... V holds with AJo


This isnt' the first time this situation happened to me. Over the last several years I can recall this happening to me multiple times where my brain stops work, it just freezes. I'm not thinking, I'm not inserting any logic, I don't even know if my breathing patterns are normal.

...

has this or does this happen to anyone here? If so, what are you doing to fix the leak?
After about 6-7 hours into a session, that can be me. After three late night sessions, that can be me.

For example, I jammed a limped pot on the river with the "nut" straight. But it wasn't the nuts, more like the third nuts, the board cards were face up and nicely aligned but somehow I didn't see there were two bigger straights possible duh...

There are a couple of reasons the dealers get up and walk to the next table every so often. We should do the same. Get some chocolate at the gift shop. Throw a few pieces around the table when we get back. Go outside and come right back inside. Anything to reboot the brain.

And "don't pay them off", make it a rule that any bet over some fixed amount (of $ or of big blinds) we HAVE to stop and count to ten, then think about why we might insist on donating a couple of hours of win rate to some donk who just got lucky vs us.

Not a guaranteed cure but it might help now and then.
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Old 03-28-2018, 05:04 PM   #5187
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Badreg2017 View Post
Bad runout but Iím at the top of my range with aces against a guy playing a wide range pre. Seems kind of fishy, he bet flop and called a big turn check jam against an old guy with A5o on 842-A. Old guy had 84 but villain got there.

1/3 live

Open to $10 in the LJ, hero raises AhAd to $30 he calls. Iíve seen villain open to $15 and $18 so I doubt his $10 open is a strong range.

Flop:856 two hearts.

Pot:$60.

How should we be sizing on wet boards in 3 bet pots where we dont have many nutted hands in our range?

Hero bets $30, villain calls.

Pot:$120

Turn: offsuit 7.

Villain checks, hero checks it back.

River:

Offsuit 3.

Villain bets $85

Hero calls.

Once I check turn maybe I have a couple of combos of 99 and sets but AA is the best hand I show up with (although a hand like KK without a heart makes a better call) and he should have some idea I am overpair heavy here. I guess I could just call the AA without a heart as a default.
First three streets (sizing and whether we should be committing) are all heavily dependent on stack sizes, imo.

For the most part, when a flush draw busts and a four-to-a-straight comes in (especially if I've bet/bet the flop/turn which I realize isn't the case here), I think I've convinced myself calling is the best long term river play. Most opponents are very polarized here, where either they've backed into the monster straight or they have the busted flush draw (which almost every opponent will now take as their bluffing opportunity against our show of weakness), whereas most other hands (even sometimes ones as strong as sets against our face up range) often just cheaply take their showdown value. And if he is on a busted flush draw, it won't hardly ever back into a 4-to-a-straight, and if this is all they ever have it makes calling it off pretty profitable, I think.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-28-2018, 05:11 PM   #5188
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Badreg2017 View Post
1/3 live.

V1BB ($300) is loose agro. Would be competent if he wasn’t so insanely wide pre.

V2 Straddle ($180) is spew monster who has been bombing it pre. I’ve seen him open 93s to $20, limp jam A2s for $150, etc. I would say he’s opening about 1/3 of hands.

Hero is UTG/UTG+1 (idk how to count the straddle) with AQss and limps, BB makes it $21, straddle calls. I thought BB would go bigger with his premiums based on his other preflop sizings.

Hero makes it $100.

Should I be more polarized with this sizing and instead make it $65-$80 here? Even against villain’s this loose should I be more polarized in general when I LRR and just flat?
Limp/reraising would definitely be my plan in this spot with these aggrotards at the table.

With this stack, I'm just looking to setup a ~PSB shove on any flop (at least ones I whiff; ones I hit I may check if they are super dry). So a reraise to $100 will setup a $200 shove into $220 (at least against the bigger stack), which sounds about right to me.

Gnicehand,imoG
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:47 AM   #5189
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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First three streets (sizing and whether we should be committing) are all heavily dependent on stack sizes, imo.

For the most part, when a flush draw busts and a four-to-a-straight comes in (especially if I've bet/bet the flop/turn which I realize isn't the case here), I think I've convinced myself calling is the best long term river play. Most opponents are very polarized here, where either they've backed into the monster straight or they have the busted flush draw (which almost every opponent will now take as their bluffing opportunity against our show of weakness), whereas most other hands (even sometimes ones as strong as sets against our face up range) often just cheaply take their showdown value. And if he is on a busted flush draw, it won't hardly ever back into a 4-to-a-straight, and if this is all they ever have it makes calling it off pretty profitable, I think.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Makes sense. Definitely agree about the polarized part, I’ve seem some very nitty checks on this type of board which is a solid argument for calling.
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Old 03-29-2018, 01:42 PM   #5190
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Makes sense. Definitely agree about the polarized part, Iíve seem some very nitty checks on this type of board which is a solid argument for calling.
Having said that, last session out (which was a horrendous one), I do this:

Folds to me in LP, I $10 with AJo, Button calls, BB calls.

KJ7ss, I $15 into $30, Button flats, HU to turn.

KJ7ss8r, I $25 into $60, Button flats.

KJ7ss8r9r, I check, Button $65 into $110, I hero call.

Spoiler:


GidiotG
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Old 03-29-2018, 02:42 PM   #5191
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

did you have a spade in your hand?

not a fan of your flop or turn sizing, not even sure if a bet is correct here based on reads and the suits in our hand.
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Old 03-29-2018, 02:48 PM   #5192
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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did you have a spade in your hand?

not a fan of your flop or turn sizing, not even sure if a bet is correct here based on reads and the suits in our hand.
No spade in my hand (so he could have Axs).

I'd only played with Villain once before, seemed like a terrible calling station, so I'm ok with my bet/folding line. Also ok with my sizing; very mediocre strength hand just looking for value against worse and not looking to build pot against better, and will be folding once the obvious flush draw comes in.

Didn't feel great about the river and obviously felt like a dolt for paying it off (although not the hand I expected to see). But I'm pretty sure ~100% of opponents (even the nittiest of face up nits) take this opportunity to bluff their busted flush draw, so I've made peace with these types of 4-to-a-straight-but-busted-flush-draw calls. Although one real problem here is that a lot of flush draw hands end up with showdownable hands that don't need to bluff on this board and QT ends up getting there too.

GcluelesspayoffmonkeynoobG
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Old 03-30-2018, 02:19 PM   #5193
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

1/2. V H#1 comes off as tight but trying to play well, first hand he's opened 30 minutes in. My default is to range him @ like AJ/KQ/77+. V H#2 is a winning TAG & off table acquaintance who opens big sizing typically & like 15% PFR in EP. Are both of these 3b/fold? Flat both? Fold 1, Call 2, etc. Been trying to call less from blinds & 3b more or just fold to unusual opens. Thanks.

H#1 (100BB)

Ac Qs (BB)

Fold, Villain r $15, fold x 4, BTN c $15, fold, Hero ???

H#2 (150BB)

Ad Js (BB)

Villain r $15, fold, MP c $15, fold x 4, Hero ???
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Old 03-30-2018, 02:24 PM   #5194
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

The AJ hand is a crystal clear fold in my mind, ( horrible hand with loads of reverse implied odds against a non out of line opening range from early pos)- the AQ hand can be a little bit closer and i prefer a mix between a fold and a call. I dont think 3 betting AQ off OOP serves us well after a tight player opens to 15 from early pos, wich is a fairly large sizing in most 1/2 games with no limpers in the pot already.

With the extra money in there from the caller in between i guess i take a flop with the AQ hand, and fold the AJ hand. But i dont think its anything wrong in just mucking the AQ either against a tight straight forward villain in a 1/2 game.
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Old 03-30-2018, 02:33 PM   #5195
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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The AJ hand is a crystal clear fold in my mind, ( horrible hand with loads of reverse implied odds against a non out of line opening range from early pos)- the AQ hand can be a little bit closer and i prefer a mix between a fold and a call. I dont think 3 betting AQ off OOP serves us well after a tight player opens to 15 from early pos, wich is a fairly large sizing in most 1/2 games with no limpers in the pot already.

With the extra money in there from the caller in between i guess i take a flop with the AQ hand, and fold the AJ hand. But i dont think its anything wrong in just mucking the AQ either against a tight straight forward villain in a 1/2 game.
Fair enough, but 15% is sort of out if line from UTG, no? AJ is like a top 8% hand too.
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Old 03-30-2018, 02:40 PM   #5196
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

It doesent really matter alot compared to other factors that AJ is a top 8 percent hand. What matters more is for example:

1) Position. We are out of position, and thus its alot harder to realize our equity/seing all 5 cards, its hard getting value when we outflop our opponent and all that kind of stuff related to position. Overplaying hands like AJ (and KJ, K10, QJ and so on) is a classic leak that you see alot in LLSNL.

2) The hand still holds alot of reverse impliedd odds, and often just makes a 1 pair hand. AJ off just plays poorly postflop, so you dont give up alot of EV (if anything at all) by just mucking it preflop in spots like the one you described where its an early pos open from a tight player and we are out of position.
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Old 03-30-2018, 03:49 PM   #5197
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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It doesent really matter alot compared to other factors that AJ is a top 8 percent hand. What matters more is for example:

1) Position. We are out of position, and thus its alot harder to realize our equity/seing all 5 cards, its hard getting value when we outflop our opponent and all that kind of stuff related to position. Overplaying hands like AJ (and KJ, K10, QJ and so on) is a classic leak that you see alot in LLSNL.

2) The hand still holds alot of reverse impliedd odds, and often just makes a 1 pair hand. AJ off just plays poorly postflop, so you dont give up alot of EV (if anything at all) by just mucking it preflop in spots like the one you described where its an early pos open from a tight player and we are out of position.
What I'm really getting at is that we're pretty high up in our distribution, villain is opening semi-wide despite being in EP, there is a bad player in between I wouldn't mind getting HU with, & we're last to act. Just thinking AJo plays pretty OK as a 3b candidate here vs a thinking player, & shouldn't really be categorized as "overplay", whether he calls too much or folds too much (thinking he'll fold around 60% of time, but if not our hand plays OKish against a 10-15% distribution), but I agree w/ alot of what you're saying. Thanks for your response(s).
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:40 PM   #5198
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

1/3 live. Two limps, hero makes it $17 in the HJ with KhQd, first limper calls. He looks like a 30’s businessman and is playing loose pre, fit or fold post so far but small sample. He’s on the list for 2/5.

Pot:$37.

Flop: JhTh5c. Villain donks for $30 with $80-90 behind. Hero? Is this a shove? Don’t think we have much fold equity so I could just call and hope to turn some equity. A lot of cards that improve our hand are good for his semi-bluff range though.

Last edited by Badreg2017; 04-04-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:43 PM   #5199
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Fist pump shove. You might be ahead (he can have Q9, 98 and basically any hearts), and if you're behind your overcards are often live in addition to your straight outs. Calling is only better if we plan to fold to a blank turn, which seems awful.
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:43 PM   #5200
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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1/3 live. Two limps, hero makes it $17 in the HJ with KhQd, first limper calls. He looks like a 30ís businessman and is playing loose pre, fit or fold post so far but small sample. Heís on the list for 2/5.

Pot:$37.

Flop: JhTh5c. Villain donks for $30 with $80-90 behind. Hero? Is this a shove?
As long as you don't fold, I don't think you can go wrong here. Shove might be a slight overplay because it is unlikely you have a ton of FE here, but you won't be in awful shape if he snaps. I might just flat IP and play the turn though.
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