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Old 03-15-2018, 09:13 AM   #5126
SwolyswoND
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I do love me a delayed cbet/double barrel bluff, but I'm not sure this is the spot for it. I think it works better versus 1-2 opponents than 3+, and on a flop where OP correctly determined that it was unlikely anyone smashed, I'd rather just cbet and fold out Kx/Ax hands that are ahead of us. Those hands are unlikely to float multiway.
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:19 AM   #5127
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
It must be nice to live in a world where your arguments benefit from having the best Vs possible. In your world Vs are so good that they fold overpairs all the time correctly yet be bad enough that they call down with what is possibly 3rd pair by the river because "we might be bluffing the overcards"
If you're referring to the previous discussion regarding how we don't have nearly as much IO setmining as we think we do, I don't see how this is inconsistent. In order for pure setmining to be profitable (especially in HU cases) you will require at least 3 postflop bets going in; if you only get 2 postflop bets going in, you're simply not making enough money with them to breakeven. In this particular example, your line due to the flop check is getting 2 bets in (and I believe it will get 2 bets in because I believe a lot of opponents will call you down with weak hands due to your flop check, which is why I think this is a good move with a value hand); however, if you're doing this with your sets, you're simply not making enough money with them. None of this thinking is inconsistent with each other.

Gdisagree?G
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:02 PM   #5128
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

This is from a $2/$3 game. I have $700 or so villain has about $230.

Dude in utg +3 raises to 15. I saw him raise preflop earlier with 76o so I planned to 3! when given the opportunity. I 3! To 50 with 76cc in the seat next to him.


Guy to my immediate left calls and the initial raiser folds. The guy who cold called me is a loosish reg who I caught bluffing earlier in the session, he tried to turn a pair into a bluff but sized way to small on the river (about 1/4 pot).

Board is 3d7h5h Pot: $110approx (minus the rake)

I cbet 50 guy calls.

Turn is 5d Xx

River is 9s. I check.

He jams for 186. My earlier history with this villain played a little bit into me folding but part of the difficulty I had here was trying to figure out his 3bet cold calling range. I thought he'd pretty much have QQ-99 in this spot with maybe the occasional KQhh, AQhh or AKhh - although I think they're jamming turns at least some of the time. I do have the 7 here which blocks some fullhouses but he should rarely be cold calling with 77 anyway. I ended up folding but this is a spot where I'm worried I could be exploitable. If I had an overpair here I would almost certainly be jamming the river but I guess I should be checking turn and river with 99 here and maybe sometimes AA so my checking range on the river isn't so weak. Thoughts?
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:07 PM   #5129
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

My thought is villain started with about 230, put in 50 and then another 50 and then jammed 186.

I'd call the floor.
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Old 03-18-2018, 02:05 PM   #5130
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Not really a strategy Q, but I think this is a good place to put this.

Last week I made one of the dumbest plays in my live poker playing career. I have a read on V that whenever he min 3bets it's almost always a broadway Ace (observed this at least 5 times over the course of 3-4 sessions). The V is out of town, so he was showing his cards freely. Furthermore, any aggression from him was weighted towards value/nutted hands.

Then this hand occurs. There's a 15 open from a nit/tag (mostly nit) call from mp, our V 3b to 45, and we have KcKs and 4b to 150, folds to V he insta call. about 230 eff stacks remaining, F AdTd3h, V ships. H tanked for a minute knowing I am beat.. knowing I am behind... but somehow I called...... V holds with AJo


This isnt' the first time this situation happened to me. Over the last several years I can recall this happening to me multiple times where my brain stops work, it just freezes. I'm not thinking, I'm not inserting any logic, I don't even know if my breathing patterns are normal.

In sports psychology, this is known as choking. Recently, I started the habit of getting up from my chair every few orbits, so when the time comes to make a big decision I can get up and not be "frozen" in one spot and actaully think.


has this or does this happen to anyone here? If so, what are you doing to fix the leak?
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Old 03-18-2018, 04:23 PM   #5131
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

its called entitlement tilt mang. Every one has to deal with it in some form or another. It is an extremely expensive form of tilt. Taking an orbit off every couple o hours definitely helps to reset. Knowing that you can feel it creeping in, acknowledging it, and resetting is critical to maintaining at top shelf w/r imo.
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Old 03-18-2018, 04:40 PM   #5132
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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its called entitlement tilt mang. Every one has to deal with it in some form or another. It is an extremely expensive form of tilt. Taking an orbit off every couple o hours definitely helps to reset. Knowing that you can feel it creeping in, acknowledging it, and resetting is critical to maintaining at top shelf w/r imo.
Just looked it up, and yea Jared Tendler makes good point. To further elaborate on the KK hand, I had been card dead for about 2 hours leading up to that point. So entitlement tilt makes sense. I got married to the hand, and as I mentioned above, it happens to me once in a blue moon.


thanks for the input. That **** costed me almost $400 which, as you mentioned, is no good for my w/r
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Old 03-19-2018, 11:47 AM   #5133
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by jbk1993 View Post
This is from a $2/$3 game. I have $700 or so villain has about $230.

Dude in utg +3 raises to 15. I saw him raise preflop earlier with 76o so I planned to 3! when given the opportunity. I 3! To 50 with 76cc in the seat next to him.


Guy to my immediate left calls and the initial raiser folds. The guy who cold called me is a loosish reg who I caught bluffing earlier in the session, he tried to turn a pair into a bluff but sized way to small on the river (about 1/4 pot).

Board is 3d7h5h Pot: $110approx (minus the rake)

I cbet 50 guy calls.

Turn is 5d Xx

River is 9s. I check.

He jams for 186. My earlier history with this villain played a little bit into me folding but part of the difficulty I had here was trying to figure out his 3bet cold calling range. I thought he'd pretty much have QQ-99 in this spot with maybe the occasional KQhh, AQhh or AKhh - although I think they're jamming turns at least some of the time. I do have the 7 here which blocks some fullhouses but he should rarely be cold calling with 77 anyway. I ended up folding but this is a spot where I'm worried I could be exploitable. If I had an overpair here I would almost certainly be jamming the river but I guess I should be checking turn and river with 99 here and maybe sometimes AA so my checking range on the river isn't so weak. Thoughts?
IMO, 3betting light with lowstacks is in general mostly spew. We're going to setup a $100 pot with only $180 left, so with so little left behind we won't have much FE postflop if he hits / has anything. Also looks like we're in EP - MP where we simply have too many people behind us that could wake up with a hand. I just fold.

With these small stacks, I think you could argue for a shove on the flop. And, also, what's our overall plan; put in about half our stack with TP and then eventually fold?

On the turn we only have $130 left in a $210 pot and we have TP on a drawy board. Sorta think we have to lie in the bed we made at this point and shove, no?

On the river, if effective stacks were correct in the original description, he should only have about $130 left. Me thinks he most bets overpairs for protection on the turn when checked to and a lot of people will check back 9x TP type hands here thinking they're not called by worse anyways. So it's likely either a monster (boated up on the turn) or busted draw, so I'd lean towards a call.

Gpreflopisspewy,imoG
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Old 03-19-2018, 11:52 AM   #5134
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
Then this hand occurs. There's a 15 open from a nit/tag (mostly nit) call from mp, our V 3b to 45, and we have KcKs and 4b to 150, folds to V he insta call. about 230 eff stacks remaining, F AdTd3h, V ships. H tanked for a minute knowing I am beat.. knowing I am behind... but somehow I called...... V
I'm not so sure I would beat yourself up too much about this. You only have about a 3/4 PSB left and this guy looks like he can be aggro and the board is drawy. Also, how often does Ax open ship here (as it mostly just allows KK- to make a hero fold and prevent a cbet)? Wouldn't they far more often check/call?

Gevenwithreads,callingisunderstandable,imoG
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:12 AM   #5135
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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I'm not so sure I would beat yourself up too much about this. You only have about a 3/4 PSB left and this guy looks like he can be aggro and the board is drawy. Also, how often does Ax open ship here (as it mostly just allows KK- to make a hero fold and prevent a cbet)? Wouldn't they far more often check/call?

Gevenwithreads,callingisunderstandable,imoG
This V is almost always leading an Ace here and x/f everything else really. TBH, i'm not beating myself over the result. It's the ready that I have on V and my brain going against the read was what bothered me. I can care less about the result, I just didn't make the correct decision. I had a read, went against = bad decision. I just wanted to get some input if this "choke/freeze" moment happens to others as well
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:14 AM   #5136
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

simple line check with AA

H is relatively new to the table, villain is very tight/passive type. Game is 2/3, folds, h opens 20 from ep1 with AA, V on the but calls, HU. F JJ8 H decide to go on x/c line. X, V 30, call. T K x/x. R 4 60 into 100.

x/c line fine on this board? Lead turn? or played fine?
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:59 AM   #5137
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
simple line check with AA

H is relatively new to the table, villain is very tight/passive type. Game is 2/3, folds, h opens 20 from ep1 with AA, V on the but calls, HU. F JJ8 H decide to go on x/c line. X, V 30, call. T K x/x. R 4 60 into 100.

x/c line fine on this board? Lead turn? or played fine?
Played fine.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:25 AM   #5138
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Why is c/c fine on JJ8r heads up? We should be betting that flop small with our whole range.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:44 AM   #5139
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

ya that is fine too and probably better vs a tight/passive opponent. I don't mind x/c with AA sometimes though if we ever want to x/c some hands.

the only thing I don't like is the preflop sizing but idk if that is "standard" in op's game.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:38 PM   #5140
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
simple line check with AA

H is relatively new to the table, villain is very tight/passive type. Game is 2/3, folds, h opens 20 from ep1 with AA, V on the but calls, HU. F JJ8 H decide to go on x/c line. X, V 30, call. T K x/x. R 4 60 into 100.

x/c line fine on this board? Lead turn? or played fine?
Stack sizes likely make a big difference.

Assuming $300 / 100bb stacks, I'm fine with the line. ETA: Also don't mind a very small bet/fold line especially against passive / non-bluffy opponents. With AA being so invulnerable here if it's ahead (with bigger pairs being more and more vulnerable as they get smaller), there is less reason to bet it, so a check is still fine too, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:53 PM   #5141
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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ya that is fine too and probably better vs a tight/passive opponent. I don't mind x/c with AA sometimes though if we ever want to x/c some hands.

the only thing I don't like is the preflop sizing but idk if that is "standard" in op's game.


My standard open from early.


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Old 03-21-2018, 01:55 PM   #5142
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Why is c/c fine on JJ8r heads up? We should be betting that flop small with our whole range.


Because this is a wa/wb spot. I don’t mind keeping his random 8x in there, his KQ type hands. J88 is a bet, I think JJ8 I don’t mind checking a street and chose the flop as the option


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Old 03-21-2018, 02:07 PM   #5143
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I'm to the right of a pretty decent tag at 1/3, in middle position. I've been raising a lot pre, and do with AA to 20 over a Couple limoslimps. Tag raises to 60, folds back to me, 4 bet oop vs good player, or call for some deception and play a flop?
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:24 PM   #5144
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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I'm to the right of a pretty decent tag at 1/3, in middle position. I've been raising a lot pre, and do with AA to 20 over a Couple limoslimps. Tag raises to 60, folds back to me, 4 bet oop vs good player, or call for some deception and play a flop?
stack sizes matter
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:30 PM   #5145
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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stack sizes matter
400 effective
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:37 PM   #5146
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

depending on my read, i would jam or raise to 200-240. at 1/3 i usually have little reason to try to deceive players by flatting big hands OOP. at this level many players will call a jam because they think you're messing with them.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:00 PM   #5147
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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400 effective
I probably lean towards a 4bet with these effective stacks as they are getting a bit too deep where he's not going to feel committed on a lotta flops / whiffed AK. If we were like $300 deep, he'd only have $240 left in a $120 pot, and my guess might commit that enough with AK or 2nd pair; but with $340 remaining into a $120 pot, I don't think he's committing as much, imo.

Having said that, we probably lose a good player quite a lot here.

Also, our seat sucks, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:19 PM   #5148
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I probably lean towards a 4bet with these effective stacks as they are getting a bit too deep where he's not going to feel committed on a lotta flops / whiffed AK. If we were like $300 deep, he'd only have $240 left in a $120 pot, and my guess might commit that enough with AK or 2nd pair; but with $340 remaining into a $120 pot, I don't think he's committing as much, imo.

Having said that, we probably lose a good player quite a lot here.

Also, our seat sucks, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
good call - I 4bet to 160 and he insta-folded
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Old 03-21-2018, 06:07 PM   #5149
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
Because this is a wa/wb spot. I don’t mind keeping his random 8x in there, his KQ type hands. J88 is a bet, I think JJ8 I don’t mind checking a street and chose the flop as the option


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You'd be very very surprised how wide people float on paired boards in position heads up. Put their small pairs and KQ type hands in a weird spot by betting small, where they think they are getting right odds to float you.

Also, we want to be able to bet our bluffs on flops like this that are hard for the Villain to hit, so we sure as hell better be betting the top of our range.
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Old 03-21-2018, 06:16 PM   #5150
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Also, we want to be able to bet our bluffs on flops like this that are hard for the Villain to hit, so we sure as hell better be betting the top of our range.
For me this is very similar to WA/WB situations, such as how I'd lean towards a check with KK on A high flops (almost invincible if ahead) and yet maybe lean towards a bet with TT on A high flops (much more vulnerable if ahead). Similar spot here on this JJ8 flop (although admittedly there are draws), imo, so I thinking checking AA (while betting TT) is fine (although a small bet isn't terrible either), especially considering we likely don't want to build towards playing for stacks in an SPR 7 pot on this board.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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