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Old 03-09-2018, 04:49 PM   #5101
Koss
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Don't just look at the extreme examples (your dry runout and the A22 flop). Look at the ones in between like the JT2cc when the opponent holds AKcc. $600 stacks can go in quite easily there, particularly with aggressive players. $1,000 stacks can too.
I'm not sure why I'm chriping back in here, but AKcc vs. 22 on that board does not end well for 22 1/3 of the time, and when big bets start going in on the river, 22 is probably behind.

Overall I think your strategy is mostly sound though. Small PP's are generally profitable hands as evidenced by many online players databases, which mostly consist of 100bb buy-in games and tougher lineups than we face here, and they are rarely folded preflop. Although the value is not just in making sets, but in playing them in position and bluffing well with them also.
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:54 PM   #5102
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I certainly realize that, but it's still a massively +EV spot for 22. I also agree that small PP are best played when you can do more than just setmine with them.

The only reason I jumped into this debate in the first place was to debunk the notion that you can't profitably setmine 22 for $10 with $300 effective stacks. Which is really the only point I'm still trying to make. It was doubly weird seeing the opposite position being taken by a poster who consistently revolves his entire PF strategy around denying opponents proper setmining odds.
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:20 PM   #5103
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Don't just look at the extreme examples (your dry runout and the A22 flop). Look at the ones in between like the JT2cc when the opponent holds AKcc. $600 stacks can go in quite easily there, particularly with aggressive players. $1,000 stacks can too.
If you think $600+ (200bb+) stacks can go in quite easily into $20 HU pots (or if a set of 22 is ahead when they do), then we simply play in much different games.

GI'mout,imoG
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:07 PM   #5104
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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If you think $600+ (200bb+) stacks can go in quite easily into $20 HU pots (or if a set of 22 is ahead when they do), then we simply play in much different games.

GI'mout,imoG
no they don't go in for YOU because people don't pay YOU off
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:27 PM   #5105
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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no they don't go in for YOU because people don't pay YOU off
Oh, that's right, I forgot how I see everyone else at the table getting in $600+ into $20 pots left and right and so far that's what my set tabling experiment is also showing.

Gaddressedforthe100thtimeG
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:27 PM   #5106
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

hey fellaz I aint never poasted up in this thread b4. Was wondering if there was any interesting discussion going on

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Old 03-09-2018, 08:33 PM   #5107
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

loooool
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Old 03-09-2018, 09:19 PM   #5108
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Lol best post so far.
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:15 AM   #5109
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Interesting preflop only spot vs likely blind shove.

1/2 live

BB has $32 left and has put it over the betting line before the cards are dealt. He says he’s going all in and I believe him. V1 and 2 are bad loose-ish recs. V3 is a thinking player, have talked hands with him before. He likely perceives hero as tight preflop and knows I’m a thinking winning player.

V1 ($140) limps v2 ($200) limps, V3 ($105 just lost a hand, doesn’t seem tilted) makes it $15 in the CO, I look down at AKo in the sb. I opted to just flat. My rationale was I can back raise once BB jams and v1 and v2 likely call. The problem with back raising is I know v3 is very likely opening a strong range here and is very likely to backraise himself. Since I’m not doing great agaisnt his GII range, I lose important fold equity by just flatting and then calling his jam. The problem with raising is I lose out on the dead money plus I don’t think I have a ton of fold equity agaisnt a hand like TT given that V3 is so short.

So I called, BB jams, v1 calls, V2 folds, v3 does in fact shove, and I shove. V1 folds.

Thoughts?
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:58 AM   #5110
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Regarding flatting 22 from MP:

GG, I can get behind your stance if you were say in the HJ and a competent player opened from the LJ, but the open was from UTG by a tight player. That means:

1. Our implied odds are even better than usual given the strength of his range.

2. Minimally observant players aren’t likely to 3 bet light here so we are likely getting a $10 flop.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:19 AM   #5111
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Badreg2017 View Post
Interesting preflop only spot vs likely blind shove.

1/2 live

BB has $32 left and has put it over the betting line before the cards are dealt. He says heís going all in and I believe him. V1 and 2 are bad loose-ish recs. V3 is a thinking player, have talked hands with him before. He likely perceives hero as tight preflop and knows Iím a thinking winning player.

V1 ($140) limps v2 ($200) limps, V3 ($105 just lost a hand, doesnít seem tilted) makes it $15 in the CO, I look down at AKo in the sb. I opted to just flat. My rationale was I can back raise once BB jams and v1 and v2 likely call. The problem with back raising is I know v3 is very likely opening a strong range here and is very likely to backraise himself. Since Iím not doing great agaisnt his GII range, I lose important fold equity by just flatting and then calling his jam. The problem with raising is I lose out on the dead money plus I donít think I have a ton of fold equity agaisnt a hand like TT given that V3 is so short.

So I called, BB jams, v1 calls, V2 folds, v3 does in fact shove, and I shove. V1 folds.

Thoughts?
hard to go wrong committing a 50bb effective stack with AKo. really, it's just about ranging v3 given he is choosing to raise in the face of the BB blind action.

with the v1 dead money in there, breakeven point for you was about a 5% range for v3.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:12 PM   #5112
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Thoughts on double barreling here and sizing?

Limp, hero opens QJdd in the LJ $12, button and limper call. Limper is bad fit or fold rec. button is some kind of passive rec but I don’t have much history.

Pot:$36

Flop 8d5c2s.

So I’m often just checking with air 3 ways but I have some backdoors and it’s hard for anyone to have smashed this flop. My thought was to bet small on flop for two reasons.

1. I give myself a good price
2. It keeps their ranges wide so if they have a 5 or 2 I can bomb broadway turns and get them to fold later.

So I bet $15 and just the button calls.

Pot$63.

Turn: Ah.

I bet $50. Thoughts? If I get called here plan was to give up on river since he likely either spiked an A or is slowplaying something big so I might as well size large here to maximie fold equity.

Biggest problem with this line is that idk how many A high floats button has give my flop sizing.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:18 PM   #5113
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I'd probably more overlimp preflop.

With hands this weak I don't mind the small cbet because we can fold out better (such as Ax, Kx, etc.) and can sometimes even get called by worse (ex: 76).

I'm typically double barrelling this turn care. The Ace hits our range and we have FE against hands that think we've now caught up. I just probably wouldn't go so large, as I think a $30 - $35 bet gets this done the same amount of times.

I'm giving up on the river, noting we have showdown value against 76 if it gives up.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:26 PM   #5114
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I'd probably more overlimp preflop.

With hands this weak I don't mind the small cbet because we can fold out better (such as Ax, Kx, etc.) and can sometimes even get called by worse (ex: 76).

I'm typically double barrelling this turn care. The Ace hits our range and we have FE against hands that think we've now caught up. I just probably wouldn't go so large, as I think a $30 - $35 bet gets this done the same amount of times.

I'm giving up on the river, noting we have showdown value against 76 if it gives up.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Obviously, I disagree with GG on pre. But the planets have aligned as my thoughts are the same otherwise. Flop sizing is fine AP, turn $30ish should be fine, also give up on river AP.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:36 PM   #5115
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Raise pre is fine, flop sizing good, I like your turn sizing, to really put hands like 8x, 99-JJ to a tough decision. I feel like $30/$35 will encourage a few too many sigh calls with that part of their range.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:32 PM   #5116
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Pre is fine

3 words: delayed double barrel.

I'd check flop, we then get a street of information from everyone. If turn checks to us, we're typically only worried about getting through the button. We can then follow that up with a healthy river bet.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:00 PM   #5117
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Pre is fine

3 words: delayed double barrel.

I'd check flop, we then get a street of information from everyone. If turn checks to us, we're typically only worried about getting through the button. We can then follow that up with a healthy river bet.
I think this works much better as a value line than a bluffing line, no?

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:09 PM   #5118
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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I think this works much better as a value line than a bluffing line, no?



GcluelessNLnoobG


Any line you take for value, you should also take as a bluff. DUCY?
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:12 PM   #5119
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Depends on the button I suppose, but typically nobody is buying what I am selling if I check the flop here (I can only bluff A or K turn cards).
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:14 PM   #5120
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Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
Depends on the button I suppose, but typically nobody is buying what I am selling if I check the flop here (I can only bluff A or K turn cards).


That's why QJ is such a great hand to do either with here. T/9 give us equity, Q/J hit us and A/K is easy to rep. That's 47% of the deck. But 3 players is tougher to get through. If turn comes a low brick and someone leads we can fold pretty easily. If we bet, we need to continue

Last edited by johnny_on_the_spot; 03-14-2018 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:17 PM   #5121
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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That's why QJ is such a great hand to do either with here. T/9 give us equity, Q/J hit us and A/K is easy to rep. That's 47% of the deck
The problem with this is that (a) even though we pick up equity with T/9 no one is likely going to fold to our UI double barrel and (b) the A/K that we're beginning to rep mighta just hit someone (whereas a flop bet would have gotten rid of most of those).

GimoG
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:23 PM   #5122
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Any line you take for value, you should also take as a bluff. DUCY?
I'm cbetting a ton of my range in this spot. I'm ok with not trying to balance my checking range here. Could be a leak. I'll think about it.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:24 PM   #5123
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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That's why QJ is such a great hand to do either with here. T/9 give us equity, Q/J hit us and A/K is easy to rep. That's 47% of the deck
Interesting point.

Regarding the people saying bet $30-35 I thought that was a solid option, and I definitely like it IP. OOP I wanted to fold out hands like 76 in case they bluff river since I can’t really check call, even if I hit a pair. There aren’t a ton of draws and not everyone will fire when they miss though so maybe the $30-35 option would be good.

As played river was a complete brick so I thought it was a pretty clear give up. Unfortunately he floated flop with AJ which he actually checked back on the river.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:33 PM   #5124
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
The problem with this is that (a) even though we pick up equity with T/9 no one is likely going to fold to our UI double barrel and (b) the A/K that we're beginning to rep mighta just hit someone (whereas a flop bet would have gotten rid of most of those).



GimoG


It must be nice to live in a world where your arguments benefit from having the best Vs possible. In your world Vs are so good that they fold overpairs all the time correctly yet be bad enough that they call down with what is possibly 3rd pair by the river because "we might be bluffing the overcards"
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:35 PM   #5125
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
I'm cbetting a ton of my range in this spot. I'm ok with not trying to balance my checking range here. Could be a leak. I'll think about it.


I'm not opposed to just playing the hand more straight forward, I was just giving an alternate that no one suggested that can be useful
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