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Old 03-03-2018, 07:00 PM   #5001
Garick
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I don't make a big deal about making anyone show unless they are being a dick. I'll just wait a reasonable time. Usually waiting a beat makes folks either show or announce. If they seem embarrassed or say something like "you got it," I'll just show. The exact manner of crap that they had is not worth changing the "fun table" dynamic to find out. Just note that it was crap and that crap is therefore in their range and move on.

Now if someone is a jerk who is likely looking to slowroll or just generally ruining the atmosphere anyway, I'll say something like "show or muck, please" every once in a blue moon, but it's usually if the game dynamic already sucks and it's that guy's fault.
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Old 03-03-2018, 07:07 PM   #5002
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Badreg2017 View Post
If the other person has to show first by rule, do you guys always make people show first if you are curious what they have even if you have a nutted hand? If itís a friendly fish having a good time or just a loose fun game I wouldnít do it but what about just some random guy? I feel like Iím often too quick to just show and maybe should make people show more often.



totally depends on the opponent and room/dealer. Some dealers will be proactive about getting the correct player to show first, some wonít and if so itís just gonna slow the game down and irritate people if you sit there staring at the opponent.

Think you are on the right track about not pressing it against recreational players, but if itís a bad reg/slowroller or anyone whoís not gonna reciprocate but expect you to show, itís fine imo.
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Old 03-03-2018, 07:08 PM   #5003
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
I don't make a big deal about making anyone show unless they are being a dick. I'll just wait a reasonable time. Usually waiting a beat makes folks either show or announce. If they seem embarrassed or say something like "you got it," I'll just show. The exact manner of crap that they had is not worth changing the "fun table" dynamic to find out. Just note that it was crap and that crap is therefore in their range and move on.

Now if someone is a jerk who is likely looking to slowroll or just generally ruining the atmosphere anyway, I'll say something like "show or muck, please" every once in a blue moon, but it's usually if the game dynamic already sucks and it's that guy's fault.


whoops was stuck on last page, just listen to our man in green here
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Old 03-03-2018, 08:50 PM   #5004
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

2/3. Very loose mostly passive table. I have 350. Nobody is much shorter. Loosest player opens for 7 utg. Small for both him and the table. 2 calls. I call JT off on the button. SB calls.

Flop J84 rainbow. Utg bets 12. Call. Call. Aprox 70 in the pot. Hero?
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Old 03-03-2018, 09:28 PM   #5005
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Call seems super clear.
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Old 03-03-2018, 11:03 PM   #5006
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Yup.
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Old 03-03-2018, 11:08 PM   #5007
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

iíd say 3ball and steal that $26 or fold pre, but if this is a CA 2/3 game thatís probably bad if theyíre raking $6 or w/e with no flop
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Old 03-03-2018, 11:38 PM   #5008
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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I don't make a big deal about making anyone show unless they are being a dick. I'll just wait a reasonable time. Usually waiting a beat makes folks either show or announce. If they seem embarrassed or say something like "you got it," I'll just show. The exact manner of crap that they had is not worth changing the "fun table" dynamic to find out. Just note that it was crap and that crap is therefore in their range and move on.

Now if someone is a jerk who is likely looking to slowroll or just generally ruining the atmosphere anyway, I'll say something like "show or muck, please" every once in a blue moon, but it's usually if the game dynamic already sucks and it's that guy's fault.
+1.

Also, they muck the winner or a tie often enough.

The info is rarely worth as much as people pretend.
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Old 03-05-2018, 11:17 AM   #5009
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Preflop decision, from a cashgame at Cosmopol Casino Sweden this weekend. Stakes is 25-25 swedish crowns, wich is very close to the 2-5 games in the states. Blinds is like 4-4 USD.

The game is grinder/reg infested, even though its friday night. Fish to the right of hero limps in early pos, hero in MP raises with AQ off to 7 BB from a 100 BB stack. Most aggro 3 bettor on the table by far is in the SB, and asks hero how much he is playing. He eyeballs heros stack, then makes it 32 BB to go. Villain is playing around 200 BB stack, so have hero well covered.

Villain, young guy in mid twenties with a hoodie as mentioned have been an active 3 bettor, and amongst other things tabled 9-10 off after 3 betting a button open from a reg from the big blind.

What i am a little bit unsure of regarding to go with AQ here or not, is how aware is he of hero playing pretty tight up until this point, and how good at changing gears/picking appropriate spots when choosing to 3 bet light he really is. I am really not sure yet if he is any good, or if he is just an aggro monkey stuck in aggromode. He have been 3 betting other players at the table ( swedish regs he knows very well), but this is the first time he attacks hero and 3 bet me.

What do you guys do as a default here?

Last edited by Petrucci; 03-05-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 03-05-2018, 11:43 AM   #5010
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

AQo breaks even against 10% range, but is much worse off against a 5% range than the favorability of facing a 15% range. If you're confident that he's doing this more than 10% of the time, you can stick it in here and reap the meta game benefits. However, you've opened large and he's 3bet huge, so you probably need to work out what the sizing means for his range, if anything.
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:01 PM   #5011
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

My default is to fold when unsure here, but I open to 5bb after 1 limper, which makes the decision a little easier.
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:16 PM   #5012
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Yeah, normally me too, but the limper is a huge fish who calls almost any amount- thats why i sized the open little bit bigger than what i usually do.

Good point about that i need to find some sort of correlation to what his 3 bet sizing means . I mean, he is at least comitting himself to the hand after going this big- he is not planning to 3 bet/fold to a shove from me with these stacksizes. So i mean that fact, should also indicate that he isnt totally out of line?
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:31 PM   #5013
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

i agree heís 3b/calling but he could be doing the same size with A5s or whatever since heís gonna get 2:1 on the call
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:37 PM   #5014
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

idk. If this were a spot where I could get away with it, as Villain I might go 21 with KK+ and get it in over 2 postflop streets and 32 with AQ/AK and jam the flop when I miss. But Villain? idk
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:40 PM   #5015
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

on average, we're roughly indifferent if he 3!/f the weaker part of his range, but it's certainly great information for building a profile if we learn a guy will stick in 32% of effective and fold pre.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:20 PM   #5016
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

you can play with Vís range and folding % to suit, if heís folding 10% of the time and doesnít have AA when making it 32bb (does not include rake):

Code:
10% fold = +35bb

90% call (KK-TT, AQs+, A5s, AQo+)

52.6% V equity (0.9 * 0.526 * -100bb) = -47.3bb

30.7% H equity (0.9 * 0.307 * +103bb) = +28.4bb

16.7% chop (0.9 * 0.167 * +1.6bb) = +0.24bb

Total EV = +16.34bb
i mean the assumptions made in the above may be way off but this is the work needed to solve this spot
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:48 PM   #5017
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

A shove is a loser under those assumptions, so your math is in trouble there. Forgot to multiple 35 * .10 I think.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:12 PM   #5018
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
A shove is a loser under those assumptions, so your math is in trouble there. Forgot to multiple 35 * .10 I think.


sheeeeeeeeeeeeiiiittt

yeah you right, havenít worked that equation in awhile. thanks and oops!
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:22 PM   #5019
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

More than 1 way to get to the right answer, but I like to break out the calculations this way:

EVifcalled = (total pot if called * equity when called) - amount risked

and then you can apply the 10% (or if you wish find a breakeven fold %) by looking at

%fold * EVfold + %call * EVifcalled
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:02 PM   #5020
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
1/3

Hero opens to 15 with AA UTG, covers table

UTG+1 3! To $35, $500 just sat down a few minutes ago, 50s WG, no history

MP calls, $900, late 20s WG donk who possible plays for a living, does stupid **** if given the chance

Btn calls, $500, just sat down 20ish minutes ago, 20s WG

What's heros sizing for a 4!?

Or does anyone call and see a flop 4ways?
I'm having a little trouble understanding MP in that it looks like he's a donk who does stupid stuff if given a chance (so loser?) and yet he's possibly playing for a living (so winner?).

Like, always, I err on the side of caution here, so I'd make a big raise to like $200 or whatever. If we take it down preflop, it's really not that bad of a result as:

- we'll be OOP postflop
- I have no idea what AA makes on average, but I'm fairly positive it is nowhere near 35 bb/hand (which is what we're making here taking it down)
- the biggest thing is the idea of recipricality with the deep MP (or anyone else for that matter); *if* we size things smaller such that he thinks he can make a profitable call with whatever he has, then is seeing a flop OOP again him really going to be profitable (or, more accurately, more profitable than taking down all the dead money preflop?)

But, obviously conservative thinking on my part.

GcluelessconservativethinkingnoobG
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:06 PM   #5021
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Badreg2017 View Post
If the other person has to show first by rule, do you guys always make people show first if you are curious what they have even if you have a nutted hand? If itís a friendly fish having a good time or just a loose fun game I wouldnít do it but what about just some random guy? I feel like Iím often too quick to just show and maybe should make people show more often.
In an effort to keep the game going at a good vibe I usually cave if the other guy is obviously not thrilled with showing (as he likely has nothing) and I have a hand that I likely think is best at this point.

If he was a really good player that I just can't give out this information freely / really want to know what he has, I will usually say something in good humour like "lol, just muck if you don't want to show, I don't want to show mine either".

GcluelesstablingnoobG
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:09 PM   #5022
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by ES2 View Post
2/3. Very loose mostly passive table. I have 350. Nobody is much shorter. Loosest player opens for 7 utg. Small for both him and the table. 2 calls. I call JT off on the button. SB calls.

Flop J84 rainbow. Utg bets 12. Call. Call. Aprox 70 in the pot. Hero?
I'm cool with preflop cuz its for a cheap price and we're in position.

We didn't call preflop to hit TPmehKnodraw plus get involved with at least 3 players who are interested in continuing on this board. I just muck.

Git'samistakesometimes,butnotenoughofthetimetocare about,imoG
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:11 PM   #5023
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Preflop decision, from a cashgame at Cosmopol Casino Sweden this weekend. Stakes is 25-25 swedish crowns, wich is very close to the 2-5 games in the states. Blinds is like 4-4 USD.

The game is grinder/reg infested, even though its friday night. Fish to the right of hero limps in early pos, hero in MP raises with AQ off to 7 BB from a 100 BB stack. Most aggro 3 bettor on the table by far is in the SB, and asks hero how much he is playing. He eyeballs heros stack, then makes it 32 BB to go. Villain is playing around 200 BB stack, so have hero well covered.

Villain, young guy in mid twenties with a hoodie as mentioned have been an active 3 bettor, and amongst other things tabled 9-10 off after 3 betting a button open from a reg from the big blind.

What i am a little bit unsure of regarding to go with AQ here or not, is how aware is he of hero playing pretty tight up until this point, and how good at changing gears/picking appropriate spots when choosing to 3 bet light he really is. I am really not sure yet if he is any good, or if he is just an aggro monkey stuck in aggromode. He have been 3 betting other players at the table ( swedish regs he knows very well), but this is the first time he attacks hero and 3 bet me.

What do you guys do as a default here?
3betting a Button open isn't remotely equivalent to 3betting a MP open.

I muck and don't even think twice about it with this hand.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:41 PM   #5024
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I'm cool with preflop cuz its for a cheap price and we're in position.

We didn't call preflop to hit TPmehKnodraw plus get involved with at least 3 players who are interested in continuing on this board. I just muck.

Git'samistakesometimes,butnotenoughofthetimetocare about,imoG
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Old 03-06-2018, 05:07 AM   #5025
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
3betting a Button open isn't remotely equivalent to 3betting a MP open.

I muck and don't even think twice about it with this hand.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Lol, i am also perfectly aware of that difference GG. However that was just one example of how active of a 3 bettor he was. And just because i isoraised a fish from MP, doesent mean this villain isnt capable of 3 betting somewhat light against me. But its hard to gauge how good he really is, when this is the first session i play with him. If he is good, he should know that my 7 BB isorange from MP with many players left to act behind is decently strong, and he shoudnt be 3 betting me too light because of that. Plus that he 3 bet put in 30 percent of my effective 100 BB stack.

That being said, i ended up folding. But i was very very close to 4 bet jamming at the table. Couple of things pushed me in the fold direction as well as the things mentioned above about positions and sizing,for example the fact that he asked me how much i was playing and eyeballed my stack- that was the first time i saw him do that before he went for the 3 bet. In my experience that question/behaviour is more often than not indicative of a nutted range.
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