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Old 04-13-2012, 11:13 AM   #476
SeaUlater
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Then ya, $250 is fine, followed by a turn shove.
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Old 04-13-2012, 11:14 AM   #477
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by BukNaked36 View Post
This is the kind of range I was thinking might be good to pick up an extra call. Only stack I'm worried about playing after the flop is $200.

Does $50 represent a bet I might fold to a push? Does it represent 99-JJ, AQ better? Possibly too many callers though...

Does a push look more like AK to anyone?

Actually made it $100 which screams QQ-AA,AK imo. No way I'm folding. I'm a mid 40's white guy so I got three "nice raise NIT" folds. Happy to get a call from V1 with AQ until she caught the river A.
Trying to induce anything at this level with a smallish raise is bad; there's simply not enough aggression at these tables for this to ever work, IMO.

I think a shove does look a lot more squeezy / scared AK / take the money now with 99 / etc. and is more likely to get called that a $100 bet (which should be obvious to everyone we're never folding given stack sizes).
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Old 04-13-2012, 11:44 AM   #478
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by SeaUlater View Post
Then ya, $250 is fine, followed by a turn shove.
JC

Are you ever giving up on any turn?
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:00 PM   #479
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Maybe to A or K...hard to say without more info and being at the table.
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:26 PM   #480
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

This 1/3 live hand from the other night has been bugging me.

I've never played with villain but he seems to be tilting a bit cuz he's stuck and being sucked out on. 30ish male. Seems fishy, in a lotta hands (fairly aggro preflop too), I've targetted him as an easy mark at the table. $220.

Hero covers and is to villains immediate left. I probably have a fairly conservative image, although I have been raising lots preflop plus lost a coinflip for $75 when my AQ doesn't suck out on 99.

A limp, Villain raises to $15, I 3bet to $50 with KK, everyone folds, villain calls.

AK4r flop, ~$100 in pot, Villain has $160 left. Villain checks. What's your plan for the hand?

I ended up betting $40 (figuring I'm either getting paid off or not, especially if villain has an A). Villain calls, setting up a $180 pot on a blank rainbow turn which I then shove $120. Villain tanks forever before finally declaring me for AK and folds.

Afterwards I'm thinking perhaps checking back the flop is too obvious, so I'm ok with a bet, but once called, I'm now thinking I should have checked back the turn to make it easier for villain to get the last of his chips in. Or does anyone do a sucky bets of $50 and $70 on the last two streets?

I think I gave villain an opportunity to get off the hook, and I'm kicking myself for that.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:18 PM   #481
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
This 1/3 live hand from the other night has been bugging me.

I've never played with villain but he seems to be tilting a bit cuz he's stuck and being sucked out on. 30ish male. Seems fishy, in a lotta hands (fairly aggro preflop too), I've targetted him as an easy mark at the table. $220.

Hero covers and is to villains immediate left. I probably have a fairly conservative image, although I have been raising lots preflop plus lost a coinflip for $75 when my AQ doesn't suck out on 99.

A limp, Villain raises to $15, I 3bet to $50 with KK, everyone folds, villain calls.

AK4r flop, ~$100 in pot, Villain has $160 left. Villain checks. What's your plan for the hand?

I ended up betting $40 (figuring I'm either getting paid off or not, especially if villain has an A). Villain calls, setting up a $180 pot on a blank rainbow turn which I then shove $120. Villain tanks forever before finally declaring me for AK and folds.

Afterwards I'm thinking perhaps checking back the flop is too obvious, so I'm ok with a bet, but once called, I'm now thinking I should have checked back the turn to make it easier for villain to get the last of his chips in. Or does anyone do a sucky bets of $50 and $70 on the last two streets?

I think I gave villain an opportunity to get off the hook, and I'm kicking myself for that.

GcluelessNLnoobG
With my image I typically bet 2/3 here, but from the way you play which is much more passively-I would play this hand like JJ/QQ. I assume with those hands you would check the flop.

I am between betting 50 and checking behoind ot give him a chance to catc-up/donk turn or c/c turn and be committed on river.

I actually think 50 is best. I don't ever 3 bet and then bet flop for less that the total preflop amount. You also don't seem to 3bet with less than AK, KK+...does villain know this? If he does, then I think you have to check behind...40 seems like the worst option IMO between checking and betting 50.

So inclusion your line should be

50~=check>>>less than 50

I think villain had smaller pair and would have gotten it in with any ace hand-so you had nothing to lose
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:30 PM   #482
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friend thinks villain should have folded the flop here; not sure what i think

villain is 30s asian who seemed to be in every hand

hero is late 40s and white; playing average.

eff stacks: 250

2/5 NL

hero overlimps on the button with 5s 7s

flop is 3s4s10s

villain leads for $35. hero makes it $100. villain ships. hero calls.

villain has As9x.

i think is going to be pretty standard as i'm new to $2/$5. i think $1/$2 players tend to check/call this flop with the nut draw. they're not betting out to build a pot with this draw. (which is funny because they might do it with AsXs on a two spade flop).

anyway, my friend thinks villain should have folded the flop.

thoughts?
Sounds like you need a new friend. Not going to call him an idiot because I don't know his mental state.

Never over limp 75s then raise a gut shot 50bigs.

Limping there is complete trash with 50bigs. Either top off to 500 or just fold until you see a hand good enough to stack with 50bigs.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:52 PM   #483
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by PokahBlows View Post
Sounds like you need a new friend. Not going to call him an idiot because I don't know his mental state.

Never over limp 75s then raise a gut shot 50bigs.

Limping there is complete trash with 50bigs. Either top off to 500 or just fold until you see a hand good enough to stack with 50bigs.
Hero has a flush with straight flush draw...but anyways you are correct-this is a fold pre ainec
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:01 PM   #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamicheats View Post
Hero has a flush with straight flush draw...but anyways you are correct-this is a fold pre ainec
My original post I read the hand as 75o. So I forgot to change the post. I ****ed up that post all the way around.

But I still wouldn't raise flop. I would play it passive and hope to dodge a spade.
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:17 PM   #485
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by PokahBlows View Post
My original post I read the hand as 75o. So I forgot to change the post. I ****ed up that post all the way around.

But I still wouldn't raise flop. I would play it passive and hope to dodge a spade.
ehh Im still raising for this exact reason shown-regfish spazzing with naked Ace...also very possible that villain has a set on this board considering its a limped pot-doont want a spade to fall and kill action if he does
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:27 PM   #486
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

yeah, yeah, fold preflop. christ, everyone has the same answer when someone loses a pot.

next time i have AA and lose, i should just fold preflop.

back to the question at hand: thoughts on villain's ship.
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Old 04-13-2012, 11:33 PM   #487
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by ibelieveinkolb View Post
yeah, yeah, fold preflop. christ, everyone has the same answer when someone loses a pot.

next time i have AA and lose, i should just fold preflop.

back to the question at hand: thoughts on villain's ship.
It's been covered on the forums many times why we shouldn't just gloss over the PF action - heck, there was a whole thread by Limon on this issue.

People don't think you should fold PF here due to results of the hand, people say you should fold PF here due to it being a -EV action. Also, I don't see what the action was leading to the BTN (did everyone fold?) and what position was Villain in - unless he checked out of the BB, it looks like he made a bad PF decision as well.

That being said, once this hand makes it to the flop, the way it played out was standard. I see short stacked villains doing this all the time.
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Old 04-13-2012, 11:59 PM   #488
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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It's been covered on the forums many times why we shouldn't just gloss over the PF action - heck, there was a whole thread by Limon on this issue.

People don't think you should fold PF here due to results of the hand, people say you should fold PF here due to it being a -EV action. Also, I don't see what the action was leading to the BTN (did everyone fold?) and what position was Villain in - unless he checked out of the BB, it looks like he made a bad PF decision as well.

That being said, once this hand makes it to the flop, the way it played out was standard. I see short stacked villains doing this all the time.

villain was hijack.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:35 PM   #489
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

i have kk in sb at 2-5 300 max game

almost entire table limps. btn makes it 15. i make it 85 from sb.

utg who limped now announces all in for 300+.

are we ever folding? villain just told us he has AA. havent been playing with him very long. its just so ridiculous sitting there thinking he can only have AA then he turns over AA.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:41 PM   #490
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Pretty easy fold...
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:47 PM   #491
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

They would have to be a super-nit for me to consider folding, and even then I don't think I'm good enough to. I used to think the same thing 3 months into my live poker journey, but in the last two I've seen it be AK, JJ, QQ, and even AJo once. You'd need a really specific read to fold to a 60bb shove.
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Old 04-14-2012, 01:13 PM   #492
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

It depends heavily on villain. Is villain a super tight player or a loose cannon? Yes, the frequency of either getting AA is the same, but I am probably never getting those chips back against super tight player, and that itself makes me think twice about calling.
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Old 04-14-2012, 01:29 PM   #493
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Ive wanted to fold KK probably 6-7 times since I became "good" at poker. (There were plenty of times before that when I was a lolnit). 6 of those times he had AA. 1 of those times he had KK. Which if their range is KK+ is just right.

He just always has KK+ with that line at 1/3. There's such a small minority of players that can have a wider range (I have NEVER seen one at 1/3 or 2/5 and only a few at 5/10). SO until he proves to me he is in that minority I think you should sigh and fold.

Now, I never do it. I always shrug and say he probably has AA but I'm not folding KK. But, its a pretty good way to lose money.

On the plus side, my last session I won $2500 in winning KK against AA. One time I was facing the speech and one time I was facing the shrug and shove. Both of these were easy folds but I snapped. So if you want to call I reccomend running good
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Old 04-14-2012, 01:45 PM   #494
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

This may be a simple enough concept but a difficult one to grasp: when you stop thinking about your cards' absolute strength and focus on their relative strength, you would find these spots to be much easier to play.
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:41 PM   #495
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ffolding kk for 60bb preflop is easy? lol
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:47 PM   #496
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

in a 60bb capped game, uhh...yes.
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:53 PM   #497
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

why is easier to fold in a 60bb game than 100bb game?

totally lost now
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:57 PM   #498
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

In a 60bb capped game, 60bb bet is an enormous bet, and in fact, 20bb is probably considered a "big" bet in such table.

So when the guy limp/raise 4-bet shove the table max pre-flop...and there's no other reads such as tilt factor, young LAG, or the guy is drunk, this is pretty much AA always, maybe 10% KK.

In a 100bb capped game, 60bb is wider, maybe QQ+...and again, it depends, but in a 4-bet pre-flop raise, it's a pretty damn narrow range.
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Old 04-14-2012, 03:09 PM   #499
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In a 60bb capped game, 60bb bet is an enormous bet, and in fact, 20bb is probably considered a "big" bet in such table.

So when the guy limp/raise 4-bet shove the table max pre-flop...and there's no other reads such as tilt factor, young LAG, or the guy is drunk, this is pretty much AA always, maybe 10% KK.

In a 100bb capped game, 60bb is wider, maybe QQ+...and again, it depends, but in a 4-bet pre-flop raise, it's a pretty damn narrow range.
+1

I also agree with a 20bb raise is huge and always the nuts KK+.
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:12 AM   #500
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

v1 - middle aged loose passive fish. plays anything suited, the least bit connected. recently showed down T4dd on a paired board for a rivered flush in a raised pot.

v2 - has not played a lot of hands, but i've only been at the table for 45 minutes. no notable hands played.

2/5NL
hero (bb) - $500 - Ts Th
v1 (utg) - $700
v2 (co) - $500

5 limps, hero raises to $35, both villains call, others fold.

flop: $120, 3 players
6s 7d 9s
hero bets $75, v1 tank calls, v2 calls.

turn: $345, 3 players
4s
hero?? b/f? c/f?
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