The 25 raise, I was UTG + 1, I believe.

MP and BB called (no good reads on either one, except maybe BB is a bit loose pre), flop was a bunch of bricks, like 7 10 2 rainbow.

BB checks, I lead out slightly less than PSB (~65), MP folds, BB thinks for about 20 seconds and seriously considers calling but then folds.

Now I probably could have gotten more value out of BB, but hands like these aren't my big concern. It's mostly the hands where I end up just taking the blinds because I bet too big pre. Is there any value in raising top pairs (QQ+) smaller against low stakes live villains to barrel on the flop for like 1.25 PSB?

PS. I probably need to start writing down my hands, because of terrible memory.

It's fine, you're not always gonna get called when a board is dry like that.

This is why I think limp/reraising, especially at aggro preflop tables, especially OOP, is the way too go with our big hands.

Taking down the blinds with big hands is a pretty meh result.

Expecting someone to 3bet is also a pretty meh tactic, at least at my table which is fairly passive in this regards, my guess being that hands like AK/QQ are *far* more often flatted than 3bet.

But getting in a small percentage of our stack and going ~5ways OOP is also a pretty poor result. Or, at least in my opinion. If you're fine with that result, then obviously do that.

Limp/reraising solves this problem.

If it limps around, ok, whatever, we play very cautiously in a high SPR pot (perhaps even going into underrep check/calling mode right away) and dump our hand to any undesired action (if we fold the best hand in a small pot once and a while, whatever, no big deal). Thanks to the high SPR, we'll have lots of room to hopefully figure out if our hand is good, keep the pot small, etc. and every once and I'll while we'll bink a monster and simply go for value.

If we limp/reraise, we get two possible results, both of which are really good. If we take down all the dead money preflop (untaxed in my room), not a bad result, especially at a typical loose big raise table (seeing a raise to $20 and 3 callers is not uncommon at my table, so taking down $80 uncontested preflop is a pretty fantastic result even with AA). And if anyone calls our limp/reraise, whatever, they've put in far too much of their stack to be profitable and we can simply comfortably stack off postflop most times (assuming no ******ed flop, assuming not incredibly large stacks).

At least, that's how I look at things.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I deleted the backing post as it is not low--stress strat, nor any other kind of strat, and thus does not belong in this thread. It was not deleted by accident, and I will be deleting the repost and its replies. Please don't restart that discussion ITT again. There is a forum for staking.

TT vs 3bets

5/5 game. Hero just table changed. 1k stack vs most of the table.

UTG, whom I never played with but know is a Spaniard who came to the states for poker, so likely plays onthewebz, opens to $25. 2 people call and BTN who's also a Spaniard coming stateside for live poker 3bets to $130. Hero in sb looks at TT. One of the limpers I know will likely call if it gets around to him from previous play. Standard flat? UTG should be on the tighter side per read, but not OMC live tight and BTN should be aware of that... & they're also friends so there's that dynamic...

Seems like a pretty easy fold to me. Pretty serious risk of a 4bet from UTG.

4bet>fold>call imo

Don't get the logic behind 4betting. It's basically a bluff. If I'm going to bluff 4bet, I'd rather have something like a suited ace, that way I have a blocker to them having AK or AA. Equity is similar - TT is 33.7% against { JJ+, AK } and A6s, for instance, is 28.3%.

Yup, pretty much. Both ranges is also uncapped here and consists of lots of the hands that having us smoked JJ+. Also its hard to navigate postflop if we just call and go 3 ways to the flop here with a very small SPR. Were gonna get forced into stackoff territory on many boards, into no mans land because we have little info to work with- and we are not able to range people remotely accurately here.

Finally we are in a bad position when we play from the SB.

Easy fold everything considered if you ask me.

+1

Value extraction I was thinking maybe against JQs, but a *smart* tag pro is probably folding out JQ on the flop because AK is strongly enough in your range and the RIO for that situation takes a huge chunk out of the equity for hitting a straight when you don't have AK but are willing to pay him off. JQ will probably either be folding or playing back at you.

+1

Start raising light to take down pots with cbets and barrels. Meditate and take an acting class to prevent the inevitable heart attack terror tells you give off, if you're really a supernit, cause it won't be easy even for small amounts of money.

Pretty easy fold for me anyway. I'm never looking to get involved in a bloated pot absolutely OOP with a hand I'm not sure about. I play 1/2 but if the bet sizes were adjusted (12, 2 callers and a 3bet to 65 and stacks are ~500), that fold is very easy. If I call I'm setmining and I'd rather do that on the button.

Tough spot. JJ is a flat. TT is probably a fold. If 4 bets are very rare at your table I think a call is defensible but probably still a losing play. You are basically putting in over 10% of your stack to set mine OOP here. Even if we hypothetically knew for 100% sure that everyone was going to just call behind it's still not great.

4-betting seems bizarre. I'd rather have an Ace in my hand as others have pointed out.

Hero has KsKd in UTG +2, (full table)

UTG and UTG +2 limp

Hero in MP raises to $12 (should have sized bigger in hindsight)

4 callers to the flop including UTG and Hero:

Flop ($49): Q89

UTG checks,

UTG + 2 bets $45. No reads on the guy. He sat down 1 orbit ago and hasn't won any pots.

Hero?

My thinking he's on a nut flush draw at worst, some chance of JT? Possibly 89 connectors? A PSB bet with 2 people behind reps something very strong. Would someone limp pocket 8s ?

Is my thinking too MUBSy?

you state you are UTG+2 but then you state UTG+2 limps....you then state you are in MP......you also don’t mention stack sizes.....also, what position is the other caller in?…..hard to give advice without you clearing all this up first

cmon I think it's pretty easy to untangle. Hero is in MP. There's only one check before UTG+2 bets, therefore the other caller is in position.

My original reaction was to call, but having thought about it a bit I think I want to fold. Guys whose plan it is to just make big hands and then bet heaps are a common archetype in LLSNL because that's a winning strategy. I think vs unknowns, it's best to err on the side of caution on the flop, because there's a lot of betting still to happen and you could easily be facing a nutted range.

Give him something like:

{ 88,QTs+,JTs,98s,KhJh,KhTh,Ah9h,Kh9h,Jh9h,Th9h,Ah7h ,Ah6h,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah3h,Ah2h,QTo+,JTo }

You have 42%, but there are the other players to worry about and he might not have QJ/QT as often as represented in this range. Given that you need 33%, a call is fine there but it's not like a fist pump. But then he may have a total nut peddling range like { 88,Q9s-Q8s,JTs,98s,JTo } in which case you have like 12.5% equity and it's horrible.

Yeah sorry guys, my memory isn't that good, hence using this thread instead of a separate post. I'm lucky if I can remember 2 hands out of a 6 hour session.

Hero was in MP ($450 stack), UTG+2 stack size was ~$200 (hard to tell, he's one of those that stack different chips together in 2 towers).

I don't think that changes anything. Considering his cbet sizing (our table was usually 40-60% of pot size), I would tend to put him toward the nutted range (what you listed + some flush draw combos, in which case it was around 18% equity for us which is still horrible)

Yeah, either raise way more or overlimp to limp/reraise.

As played, I would consider folding to the flop donk.

GbutIfoldrealeasyG

Had a winning session last night, went for (and obtained) thin value in a couple of spots. Ran pretty bad for the first couple hours then it did a 180 and I got TT three times, QQ three times, AK three times, all in the next couple hours. This hand took place near the end of it all:

V1 (200): semi-nitty older middle age lady. She's pretty straightforward post flop.
V2 (200): relatively unknown older guy. Never seen him show a bluff or get out of line but haven't seen enough hands to really know.
Hero (covers): has been running really good over the last couple hours, pulling down pots and winning showdowns.

V1 raises to 12 in SB, Hero picks up QQ, decides to flat OTB for a change (probably a mistake because "why bother balancing", but oh well), V2 calls in SB.

Pot 39, flop 567

V2 checks, hero bets 18, V2 calls, V1 folds.

Pot 75, turn 7 and V2 tanks on his decision. I'm wondering if he actually checked and I missed it. I ask, and he then checks. Weird. I check. I'm worried that he has some sort of monster (mainly a 7) and was deciding whether to bet or checkraise. Like he was thinking for a minute, ish.

Pot 75, river 7, V2 thinks for a few seconds and shoves for 170.

I'm thinking, never seen this guy bluff, pot's only 75. Why would he shove for so much? But what if he thinks he's value shoving with 88 or 99 etc and I have him beat? But that feels like a more upper level play. He's probably betting more like 40-50 with those hands. He doesn't have AA or KK, virtually positive. Would've raised pre or on the flop with those. But I've never seen him bluff and he doesn't feel like a bluffy guy. And I tend to want to suss out an opponent before making a hero call. I'm mostly worried about 76 or 75, I think, where he wanted to bet the turn but decided to slowplay, and then got antsy when I checked and wanted it to look bluffy. Maybe A7 in the same situation. But, maybe 66 or 55 that had a boat before and it's a pure psycho shove.

I feel like I need a better read on my opponent before making this call, so I fold.

Spoiler not read, but to me this is a snap call, though not a happy one. He could be doing this with any boat, especially given how under-repped your hand is. There aren't many 7's in his range, and while AA and KK are possible, so is anything 88+.

FWIW, I'm betting the turn every time. Also 3 betting pre and betting flop bigger.

Post reading spoiler. LOL at showing your fold there.

I'd shove 7x here almost always in his spot, so I'm cool with fold.

Obviously lottsa decision points where we could have done something different (and lots of good arguments for doing so), but I'm cool with the line we took. Given the way we played preflop (not building towards commitment) I think makes our postflop play more in-line with this thinking; had we 3bet preflop then obviously our postflop line would have been working towards stacks and not folding.

GbutI'mpassiveandfoldlots,sowhateverG

3b pre.
ap call river - your hand is so underrepped, he can have worse for value and plenty of bluffs/spazz when you play your hand this passively
ap def don't show the fold!

Snap call Corlath - we beat everything apart from7x and he can be value shoving with 88, 99 and even some other boats

Also, how does SB act before you pre flop?

Eff stacks with main villain 520

2/3 5 limpers to me in bb with AQss. I raise to 30, 2 callers - loose passive old guy and youngish Asian on button who has some play in him

Flop ($99) is J 10 4 sss. I bet 40, he raises to 140.

Do I flat, raise or cram?

Yeah I like three betting and *definitely* like betting the turn in my hand. If I bet the turn he probably doesn't shove the river and I go for value on the river as well...

Also, yeah, I've gotten into a bad habit of showing hands.

And been running bad lately so it was more worth it to me to be cautious and keep a cautious frame of mind rather than encouraging myself to continue with (seemingly) risky calls.
**********************************
Feel, who raised to 140 and what did the other guy do?

Yes, thanks for picking up on that - old guy tank folded and young Asian raised from the button

That does seem like a tough spot. For reference the pot is 270 before your call, would be 370 after a call, so shoving the remaining 350 effective would be just under a pot sized raise, or bet on following street.

What is *your* image at the table? It seems like his perception of your range probably matters more than his own actual range (or is at least as important).

Flat: let the lagtard keep spewing if he's near the bottom of his bluffing range, or value betting the top of his value range. Obviously hope the next card isn't a board pair, or a spade potentially killing action. If he was raising because your cbet looked weak this is the best option imo.

Raise 150 on top: He knows you're committing your stack, right? I guess if he thinks you're totally FOS (thinking he's FOS) he could shove not caring that the last 200 is giving you insane odds to call.

Shove: maybe looks more like you have the AsXx. You're folding out his marginals but he's got to feel stuck calling with all of his flushes, two pairs and sets. He doesn't have JsJx+, I assume, as he would've 3bet those. I'd be most inclined to shove because of the possibility of a scare card coming on the turn, but that's like 1 in 3ish.

Anyway just thoughts, I don't have a cut and dried answer.