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Old 03-26-2012, 11:11 PM   #351
LotGrinder
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I don't care if this question/line check sounds stupid, so here it goes...

I am playing in a $1/$3 game.

It's super loose and every pot is $15 to $25 to go.

I get K/Q clubs on the button, 5 limpers to me, I make it $25.00 to go.

Pretty much everyone on the table has $300+....I have $400.00

I get 4 callers and the flop comes...

10/10/8 two diamonds.

It's checked to me.

I decided to shut it down and check behind/give up on the hand rather than bet out $75.00.

Is this the right play?

I am trying to learn what boards are good to bet heavy on if I miss in pots like this... ARE ANY GOOD TO BET ON IF IT'S 5 HANDED IF I MISS?
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:08 AM   #352
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Really bad bet. Just check fold. These guys don't fold because you rep a ten or overpair or nut flush draw.
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Old 03-27-2012, 11:17 AM   #353
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by fun101 View Post
what limit do u play and how deep do u play? I cant imagine having a 10 buyin swing at 1/2 playing 100bb deep. I play 250bb deep and my worst swing (in live poker) over a hugish sample is 600bb.
1/2, 100bbs, game is good rake is high. I have a 400 hour sample of winning at the same game @6bbs/hr. you run good, congrats =)

i mean if you're buying in for 250bbs and your worst downswing is less than 3x that that's just absolutely incredible
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:00 PM   #354
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotGrinder View Post
I don't care if this question/line check sounds stupid, so here it goes...

I am playing in a $1/$3 game.

It's super loose and every pot is $15 to $25 to go.

I get K/Q clubs on the button, 5 limpers to me, I make it $25.00 to go.

Pretty much everyone on the table has $300+....I have $400.00

I get 4 callers and the flop comes...

10/10/8 two diamonds.

It's checked to me.

I decided to shut it down and check behind/give up on the hand rather than bet out $75.00.

Is this the right play?

I am trying to learn what boards are good to bet heavy on if I miss in pots like this... ARE ANY GOOD TO BET ON IF IT'S 5 HANDED IF I MISS?
I think I'd rather limp behind preflop or raise a lot more; after 5 limpers @ 1/3 at a loose table, I wouldn't raise less than $35 to have a chance at getting this HU. I'd also check behind on this flop. It's hard to bluff out 4 players, all of whom will rather correctly put us on a A high hand, plus the fact the board is drawy (flush draw, straight draws) so very unlikely a cbet takes it down.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:15 PM   #355
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by ibelieveinkolb View Post
I really see no other bet here, but I was criticized for it:

Picked up KK and 3-bet to $32. Got one caller who had limped and the raiser folded. I have $72 behind ... I failed to get my rebuy on the table before the hand.

Flop is Q 7 2 and I shove.

Opponent flips up AJ AND FOLDS.

Two people said I bet too much. What? I'm supposed to bet half the pot and leave half my stack behind? Makes no sense to me.
Obvious shove...wp
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:17 PM   #356
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotGrinder View Post
I don't care if this question/line check sounds stupid, so here it goes...

I am playing in a $1/$3 game.

It's super loose and every pot is $15 to $25 to go.

I get K/Q clubs on the button, 5 limpers to me, I make it $25.00 to go.

Pretty much everyone on the table has $300+....I have $400.00

I get 4 callers and the flop comes...

10/10/8 two diamonds.

It's checked to me.

I decided to shut it down and check behind/give up on the hand rather than bet out $75.00.

Is this the right play?

I am trying to learn what boards are good to bet heavy on if I miss in pots like this... ARE ANY GOOD TO BET ON IF IT'S 5 HANDED IF I MISS?
One of those times to just check behind and give up
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:34 PM   #357
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by SeaUlater View Post
How long have you played live? Realistically, you can probably keep the swing very very very VERY low in live because the competition is both predictable and terrible.
I decent size over the past 3 years. It didn't take me very long to lose 600BB+ in a single go, just requires losing a 300-400BB cooler and then losing ~ 2 buyins during the next session.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:18 PM   #358
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I have a quick question about donk-betting. I never ever donkbet, meaning my donkbet stat will be 0%! Am I missing something? I am viewed as a rock, so people tend to cbet into me alot because they know I can fold and I don't make speculative calls very often. In this case, can someone give me some scenarios where donking would be the optimum play?
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:18 PM   #359
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

playertee - in general, when you hit something against calling stations who raised pre but don't bet that much post, just do the betting for them.

Donk betting is really important at LLSNL when so many V call too much and bet too little post flop.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:22 PM   #360
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

unpredictable reg who does some weird things limps from EP, there's a raise from TAG'ish guy from button, I flat in BB with TT, limper calls. 3handed on flop.

Board is 568r, limper leads out for near pot, button calls. Hero?

I folded here but I'm not sure if this is too nitty, also this hand has been bothering me since I would have won it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:27 PM   #361
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by playertee View Post
I have a quick question about donk-betting. I never ever donkbet, meaning my donkbet stat will be 0%! Am I missing something? I am viewed as a rock, so people tend to cbet into me alot because they know I can fold and I don't make speculative calls very often. In this case, can someone give me some scenarios where donking would be the optimum play?
Donk bet 2 pair, sets, OESD + Flush draw around 50% of the time.

The other 50% you DONK bet, bet when an Ace is on the board and you have complete air. If your opponent holds PP lower than an Ace a lot of times they'll turn their kings or queens face up, get iRate and muck the hand then berate you for having Ace/Rag. Other 50% of the time they'll have something and you can shut down.

With a monster hand, donk out 30% to 50% of the pot to induce a raise.

With an air ball, donk out 75% to 100% of pot. You don't have to donk with complete air.. you can donk with an open end or gutshot straight so at least you have some outs.

With air, I give up on turn.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:08 AM   #362
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
unpredictable reg who does some weird things limps from EP, there's a raise from TAG'ish guy from button, I flat in BB with TT, limper calls. 3handed on flop.

Board is 568r, limper leads out for near pot, button calls. Hero?
AP, I fold here too. Even though you have a small overpair, action in front of you is not favorable.

OTOH, this is a great place for a donk bet, as also being discussed ITT. I would donk out on this flop and fold to a raise. Playing a small overpair out of position sucks.

TBH, I don't like the flat pre. I 3bet/fold this all day long. You will hate most flops, and hate your position when you don't. If you'd 3! this pre, you'd take down pot with a c-bet almost every time.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:22 AM   #363
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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AP, I fold here too. Even though you have a small overpair, action in front of you is not favorable.

OTOH, this is a great place for a donk bet, as also being discussed ITT. I would donk out on this flop and fold to a raise. Playing a small overpair out of position sucks.

TBH, I don't like the flat pre. I 3bet/fold this all day long. You will hate most flops, and hate your position when you don't. If you'd 3! this pre, you'd take down pot with a c-bet almost every time.
That's exactly why I don't donk bet, if you donk bet, u r missing out on some important information you get from other villains in the hand. Also u let villains play optimally by folding hands they might cbet with...

I think it's the right play sometimes, but very rarely imo
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:58 AM   #364
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Gonna try to be a more regular contributor to this thread, because I want to start posting a lot of hands here. Will give the best advice I'm capable of.

The biggest hand I played last night:
First hand at a new table after a broken game. Selected this one based on some racist assumptions I'm not gonna put in writing. 1/2NL

Hero (HJ): $450, young kid, generally pegged as an online refugee although I'm not
CO: $300, older guy, somewhat scruffy beard, engaging in a lot of what Tommy Angelo calls "fantasy poker"
BTN: $275, eastern European dude
BB: $200, Asian kid

Dealt to Hero: AQ
Folds around to me in HJ, I open to $10, CO calls, BTN 3bets to $30, BB calls $30 cold, I call, CO calls

Flop ($120): 78T
BB checks, I check, CO checks, BTN bets $70, BB folds, I call $70, CO calls $70

Turn: ($330): 6
I check

Critiques of all streets appreciated.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:12 PM   #365
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

^^ donk the turn? Just because a 9 will call almost always
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:26 PM   #366
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I'm shoving flop. +1 to donking turn now for something dumb like $70 to set up $100 effective shove on river.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:51 PM   #367
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Donk the turn smallish to set up a river shove
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:37 PM   #368
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bok Choy Jr View Post
Gonna try to be a more regular contributor to this thread, because I want to start posting a lot of hands here. Will give the best advice I'm capable of.

The biggest hand I played last night:
First hand at a new table after a broken game. Selected this one based on some racist assumptions I'm not gonna put in writing. 1/2NL

Hero (HJ): $450, young kid, generally pegged as an online refugee although I'm not
CO: $300, older guy, somewhat scruffy beard, engaging in a lot of what Tommy Angelo calls "fantasy poker"
BTN: $275, eastern European dude
BB: $200, Asian kid

Dealt to Hero: AQ
Folds around to me in HJ, I open to $10, CO calls, BTN 3bets to $30, BB calls $30 cold, I call, CO calls

Flop ($120): 78T
BB checks, I check, CO checks, BTN bets $70, BB folds, I call $70, CO calls $70

Turn: ($330): 6
I check

Critiques of all streets appreciated.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and critique preflop. preflop is a fold mostly or a 4bet. For calling to be optimal you have to consider a number of factors:

1) stack sizes - you will flop a flush less than 1% of the time. You will flop a flush draw 10% of the time - roughly the same percentage of time as flopping a set. effective stack sizes needs to considered here...villain having $275 isn't close to enough of a stack size to call a 3bet pre. The only exceptions to this rule are if one or more other players are also in the hand and are mega fish. There is no indication from your post that this is the case

2) Villain type: You need to be reasonably sure you're villain will pay off when the obv third flush card hits on turn or river. Does villain overvalue TPTK? Has villain gone broke with KK and AA in obv fold spots?

3) Villain's 3bet range: You are likely dominated by villain's 3bet range, unless you have seen villain 3bet a much wider range...in which case
(with the amount of dead money) it makes it correct to 4bet here
(if villain can't find the fold button preflop) or you can also flat his 3bet.

I also don't like ch/call flop unless villain has alot of air in his range and is aggro enough to cbet close to 100%. In general, I can't see a "ch/call line until you hit" (passive poker) to be a +EV play...donking is fine if villain's range is mostly JJ+...IOW, just try to get it in on the flop with these effective stack sizes
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:42 PM   #369
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by LotGrinder View Post
Donk bet 2 pair, sets, OESD + Flush draw around 50% of the time.

The other 50% you DONK bet, bet when an Ace is on the board and you have complete air. If your opponent holds PP lower than an Ace a lot of times they'll turn their kings or queens face up, get iRate and muck the hand then berate you for having Ace/Rag. Other 50% of the time they'll have something and you can shut down.

With a monster hand, donk out 30% to 50% of the pot to induce a raise.

With an air ball, donk out 75% to 100% of pot. You don't have to donk with complete air.. you can donk with an open end or gutshot straight so at least you have some outs.

With air, I give up on turn.
For me, Donking is not a consequence of the strength of my hand, but rather the number of players in the hand. In a HU situation or against 2 villains, I will still check the very top of my range....Against 4+ players, I am Donking my entire value range
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Old 03-29-2012, 08:25 PM   #370
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

i'm raising that flop all day.
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:04 AM   #371
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Hi everyone, this hand I played yesterday (at 1/2) is bugging me even though it seems too trivial for its own thread. Would appreciate thoughts!

2 mp players limp, Hero raises to $10 from CO with 77, blinds fold, both limpers call.

Flop comes 8 5 2 with 2 spades, first Villain donks $15, V2 folds. Hero: ??

Villain began the hand with only about $75 (Hero covers). He has been playing somewhat loose passive, I saw him make a questionable call on the river with top pair a while ago.

Btw, the hand does continue, but this was the key decision point.
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:08 PM   #372
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

V could be trying to set the price for a FD here, but with his short stack, this is the commitment point. Wonder if he knows it, though? L/C for 13% of one's stack is lol bad.

Calling is out of the question here. It is a fold or jam spot, imo. Calling just gets you committed and lets him draw if he is doing so. Against a player this passive waking up and betting out, I prefer a fold, but a jam wouldn't be awful, as you should have good FE against much of his range. TP hands fear overpairs, draws are priced out (though he may not know it, but if he calls with a draw, great) etc. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like a shove. Maybe fold=shove>call.
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:40 PM   #373
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I am always lost playing against these guys with like 33BB, he could show up with like 56 here if you jam but also obviously an 8, or he could be trying to steal with total air thinking the low cards wouldn't hit you because you raised preflop. I probably jam.

I had a hand I posted in my goals/challenges thread, but I'll put it here for advice:

I raise in the BB with AK, one villain limp/calls from LP and it's HU to the flop, 578r. Villain thinks I'm uber-bluff-happy which is not true at all, but she snapped me off in an $800 pot with AA last time we played when I had a busted draw. Therefore I check thinking I have very little fold equity, she bets near pot. She's pretty aggressive too so I'm almost certain I'm ahead. What should I be doing here? Calling seems like the logical choice but I fold because playing Ace high OOP for 3 streets against a pretty good, tricky player just did not seem appealing to me. So lost in this spot.
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:46 PM   #374
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
I'm almost certain I'm ahead. What should I be doing here? Calling seems like the logical choice but I fold because playing Ace high OOP for 3 streets against a pretty good, tricky player just did not seem appealing to me.
Seems like you answered your own question. If you're almost sure you're ahead, but don't want to play 3 streets, then you should be raising. Don't know stack sizes, so no idea how much, but a lot, obv.

That said, l/c ranges have a lot of small PPs in them, so I'm not so sure you're ahead. Without a very good read, I just fold here.
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:51 PM   #375
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Seems like an easy decision, but this hand still bothers me from this weekend.

somewhat passive 40s white guy. pretty unremarkable in that he hasn't shown down much at all. I'd put him a bit on the tightish side, but not nitty.

5/5 game in SoCal. I've been running hot and have about 2100. Vil has $360.

I had just felted a whale twice ($500 each time) with good hands, but then showed down a winner against same whale with a loose call of whale's next PFR, so my tight image might be shot.

Earlier I iso a limper with KQ $25, he called in LP. I cbet AQx flop, he raised big. His neighbor said, "Respect" when I folded--probably a little surprised because I'd called the whale wide a couple times in the past two orbits. He told his neighbor he wished I had AQ. This is the only aggro play I saw from him in ~3 hrs, but he didn't show.

So I raise QQ in LP to $20. tightish vil (SB) and two others call.

Flop ($75 or 80--see edit) is JT9

checked to me and I bet 60. vil c/r to 200 with another 140 behind. Folds to me.

I don't think he's savvy enough to be trying to force out the other two callers with a weakish hand. I think he's just betting the strength of his hand.

fold or shove?

Edit: Not positive about pre. I may have raised $25 after an EP limper, then SB Vil and limper called. That would make pot $75 with only three players. I know the pot was 75-80 on the flop, but I wouldn't raise only to 20 after a limper

Last edited by DeuceKicker; 04-02-2012 at 12:57 PM. Reason: I suck at HHs
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