If we are betting there, it is to deny equity to overcards, not for value. What does a villain call us with that we beat, smallish pairs? We can extract value from them with a delayed c-bet on the turn. Or we can bluff-catch if the villain stabs at the pot.

ETA: Yes, we have the range advantage. Because this flop is so dry, that advantage is not going away if we check behind.

we want to deny equity when we have the toppest foo how? lol wtf?

Misread the hand; thought we had TT

General question: is it ever correct to call with 2nd pair in an unraised multi-way pot at 1/2 or 1/3? I pretty much never stick around with worse than top pair because the chances of someone having top pair crap kicker is simply too high. But if the price is cheap, trying for a 5-outer to 2-pair or trips might be worthwhile?

What do you consider when deciding to peel with 2nd or 3rd pair? Do a lot of folds before you make you lean towards calling because now you only have to beat 1 opponent? Or do a lot of calls before you make you lean towards calling because the pot odds become really good?

What about backdoor potential? I think I tend to undervalue BDSDs and BDFDs to the point of almost never considering them. That is a mistake I'm sure, but I really don't know how to correctly assess the value to a backdoor draw.

Any general tips?

A backdoor draw is worth approximately one extra out.

I do remember having read that in a poker book somewhere years ago, lol.

Would treating 2nd / 3rd pair as a 5-out draw be correct? 6 outs if we had a BD too?

What about the fact that straight and flush draws make much more robust hands? If we're in a 5 way unraised pot for example and everyone calls a small flop bet, I'd much continue with a 4-out gutshot to a nuttish hand than 5 or 6 outs to a hand like small 2-pair or trips no kicker that can easily hit and be 2nd best. How do we value the robustness of outs?

Interesting situation. 2/5 about 100bbs deep.

V1 is a massive fish who never raises, even aces. He limps in with between 50% and 90% of his hands, depending on how steamed he is. He calls raises of his limps at least 80% of the time and is very passive post.

V2 has position on V1 and 5x iso raises about half of the V1s limps. V2 is a winning, but somewhat spewy player.

We are to the direct left of V2.

Nobody behind is especially active.

What's our approach?

If he is iso super wide 25-50% by your estimates. Then I opening my 3 bet range when in late postion. Getting value vs weak opening range of V2. Still expect v1 to call occasionally.

Overcalling a lot also.

This is very player pool dependent. You'll have to pay attention for a while to get a good feel.
Where I regularly played before, this would be mostly burning money.
Where I mostly play now, I often see donk bets and people betting 2nd pair hands and people calling down 2nd pair hands. Also, a lot of bad river bluffs.
It's amazing what a difference an hours drive from one venue to another makes.
Loving life at the moment.

Firstly, I should emphasize that V1 might easily have been the worst player in the room, at 2/5 or 1/2.

I think V1 might occasionally call a 3! but not all that often.

I kind of think you should have no value raising range at all, and occasionally 3! as a bluff. (This is Vegas. I will probably never play with either guy again.)

If you have a premium, I kind of like playing decent pots in position against 2 guys with ranges that are trash, with the weak station player acting first and the stronger player stuck in the middle.

I certainly like calling plenty of medium hands.

Maybe you 3! with your weaker value hands, like TT, or AQ, where getting action is fine and them folding is OK too.

But I kind of feel like you are wasting a hand like AA,KK,QQ by 3 betting. You have this scenario where the weaker player will mostly fold, and the stronger player will usually fold, but sometimes call to setmine or whatever and then play pretty well post. Not really all that great.

Maybe I'm off base though. It was an interesting situation.

I'm playing 1-2 NL in a Texas card room. Effective stacks are about $350 (we both have about the same amount). On the button I see QQ, and after 3 limpers I make it $17 to go (normal pf raises are in the range of $7-20 at this table. I get two callers, from the SB (haven't played with him before, mid-20's kid, not getting too out of line) and an older guy in the BB who plays a lot of hands and has rebought a bunch of times.

Flop comes out 772 rainbow. SB instantly leads out $50. BB folds.

It's back to me. Options? Is this a good re-raise situation, or probably not because of the paired board?



Turn is another blank, like a 5. No flush draw. He bets $50 again.



River is a ten. Then he bets $100.

My move here? At this point I have $200 left.

Seems like a standard call/call/call situation absent specific reads.

OK. I just wondered if in the SB he has A7 or 22. Maybe it's a monsters under the bed situation. Do you still call if he shoves for $200 in that spot? I feel like if he makes it $50 it is a snap call, if he makes it $200 it's a snap fold, and for $100 (there's about $350 in the pot at this point) it's borderline.

Do you cbet this flop as the PFR with a mid pocket pair such as 88 or 99?

A 7 3 rainbow.

We'd neither be betting for value because an A is never folding, nor betting as a bluff because on such a dry board, there are no draws to calls us; maaaaybe 2nd pair does but that's a stretch I think, and we'd really prefer to play pot control / bluffcatch than to bloat the pot OTF.

With a bigger PP like KK or QQ, this is a clear check because we have good SDV and there are no / 1 additional overcard that can come OTT. But with 8s or 9s, we face many possible overcards OTT and have no idea which one helps our opponent.

So I think the right move is to cbet, happy to fold out hands we beat because it's just a difficult situation to navigate, but play very cautiously if called; definite fold to raise.

Thoughts?

With 88 or 99 we have what is known as vulnerable showdown value. We would like to get to a showdown for cheap or to bluff-catch, but anyone with a T, J, K or Q in their hand has outs to beat us.

Absent reads, I would probably bet small, like 1/3 to 1/2 pot(*), to deny equity to overcards. If we are out of position, I can see an argument for check-calling to bluff-catch.

If the villain is inclined to float a lot, I can also see checking behind and calling their stab on the turn, especially if the turn card is small.

(*) The same size we would be betting this dry flop with a strong value hand like TPTK, of course.

Flopped trips or boats are very often going to check the flop, especially to a button raise.

He also should be betting the turn bigger. Duplicating the bet size is sometimes a show of weakness, though it was a huge bet to begin with. Still, by now he should put you on an overpair and have visions of stacking you dancing in his head. My soul read when he makes it 50 again is that he has JJ and TT and loved the flop but now is worried about getting stacked himself and wants to play a medium pot.

The $100 on the river, I'd probably call but consider raising the last $100. I'd do that before I folded.

I'd say an all in is a fold, but I would have to think it over. It would be a pretty weird pattern.

Bet like 1/6th pot in these spots.

By curiosity, do you have other hands in your range with which you cbet 1/6th pot in this spot?

No bluffs. Probably not much value bc with a hand like KK we are not blocking too many Jx combos, so I’d just 1/3 or 1/4 like normal.

We are exploitatively sizing down to get extremely light calls and possibly induce, which is why we don’t choose this sizing for a bluff. Though if I was playing my locked-in-the-zone A-game I suppose a silly small bluff sizing would be fine also.

Thank you for this analysis. I think in the end, this is probably an example of the story not making a lot of sense...I was probably thinking more about the money than about playing this hand correctly.

I ended up folding, and he showed me AQ for the successful three-barrel bluff.

In very multiway pots we should often consider folding TP to a single bet, let alone 2nd pair. We just have massive RIO in most cases. Considerations that may change that would be stuff like who's betting, who's calling, how many are calling, what position the bet is coming from, whether our other pair outs complete draws, our kicker strength, etc. One of the last things I consider in multiway pots is backdoors, and I believe they are highly overrated in these spots. Mostly, just fold and move on.

GimoG

Leaving the scene of a crime.
I hope this is the right place for a small conundrum I'm finding myself in lately. In order to break a small recent downsing, at 1/2, I switched from the full buy in of 300 to 200.
Except for a few bumps on the road, it's been working fine so far.
But, what do I do if I double up and all of a sudden have a 400 stack?
I'm back to having to adjust my game. Do I cut the session short?
That's no good, I think. Or, just keep playing?
Stupid question maybe but at least stress free!

How deep is the rest of the table?

Generally, I start getting uncomfortable at 200BBs effective (well, not in 1/2, because the opening sizes are so big relative to the blinds that even 200BBs doesn't feel that deep to me). I make myself play for a while at that depth, because if I don't, I'll never get used to it, but I'll pick up after half an hour or an hour. If I'm not ready to be done for the day, I'll take a dinner break, so I can buy back in at my normal stack. Usually, though, I just call it a day.

Try changing tables, and ratholing your win before you sit down at the new table.

Don't try that. At least, not unless it is specifically allowed in your room.

Most rooms require at least a 30 minute break before you can buy back in for less. Ratholers are generally seen as scum and it is not a reputation you want.