Line check 0.25/0.50 home game. V and hero have history. V knows hero is capable of bluffing at any time. V is a solid TAG on the nitty side. He has it when he bets big. Hero playing $60, V $40.

Hero is dealt JJ in EP and raises to $2.00. V calls in EP+1. Everyone else folds.

Pot $4.75.

Flop: 4-7-9r.

Hero bets $3.00, V raises to $8.00. Hero calls. Pot $20.75.

Turn: K. Hero checks, V checks.

River: K. Hero bets $8.00. Played OK?

Thanks,
DT

as long as you folded to the shove, yes

1/2 live. This is my first hand. Main villain is a middle age woman in SB, nitty looking. Hero (HJ) has $350 and woman covers.

Two limps, hero opens AKcs to $10, blinds call and limpers fold.

Flop K94 dds.

Pot: 31.

Woman donks 25. I call.

Turn is an offsuit K.

Pot:78.

X, I bet $50 she calls.

Pot: $178.

River is an offsuit 3.

Am I crazy for considering checking this back? If she has all the KJ and KQ then that’s 8 combos that will probably call. She has 6 combos of 44 and 99. The problem is I think a set is more likely to donk flop than KJ or KQ. We could give her one combo of KTs but then we probably have to give her the one combo of K9s as well, and K9 seems more likely to take this line.

You wouldn't be crazy to check back the river but you would be making a terrible decision.

she's not folding any trips. slide those chips out like a boss.

I get that she’s very very unlikely to fold trips, the bigger issue is trips only outnumbers sets by two combos, so if her donk on the flop for nearly pot is more likely to be a set than top pair good kicker, then it’s a check back. I’m just wondering if she’s really going to be donking $25 with KJ and KQ at a meaningful frequency.

As played I bet $75.

Villains are more likely to donk with top pair than a set. Villains don't fold unsuited Broadways pre. So, unless we want to read a lot into the looks nitty read, this is a jam. Not sure what you're thinking with a b/f here, she's not folding trips and she could easily jam kq and kj.

I'd let her do the worrying about what to call with. For all you know she has TT-QQ or some sort of 9 and is going to call with it. All you have to go on is "nitty looking".

I was probably being way too results oriented in the moment and maybe a tad tilted. She flatted river, I showed, she said “nice hand” and goes to muck and pushes her cards passed the line. Then says “ I had a full house too” and shows one card which is a 4. The dealer sits there not taking her cards. She eventually realizes I don’t have a full house and shows.

Quick line check...2-5.. $800 effective...EP tag goes 20...MP caller...Hero goes 105 withKK from SB...EP calls...MP folds...Pot (230)

Flop: J94

Hero goes 85...EP calls.

Pot (400)

Turn: Q...Hero?

Check call. That was a pretty good card for his range and you lose to a decent amount of stuff now. Need to keep his ranges wide.

I would never 1/3 pot this board. You dont have a huge range adv, it favors the IP caller range a little better. Generally 1/3 potting implies you’re betting your entire range on that board for the sizing.

Otf i’d strongly consider checking to keep ranges wide. We dont get 3 streets ever here, and we can induce bluffs/keep ranges wide/get looked up by weak pairs that put us on a whiff once we check flop.

Ott im starting with a check. Probably just calling and seeing a river

Lol, welcome to Florida

solid 1/2 and 1/3 strat from this evening’s fortune cookie:

1/3, $400 effective, 7-handed, Vs are thinking rec players, MAWGs, somewhat better than the average casino player, but nothing special, V2 on the LAGgy side.

V1 makes it $18 in MP, V2 flat, H with 44 OTB calls.

Flop: $58 - J J 4 rainbow

V1 checks, V2 checks, H think about betting but decides to let Vs improve and checks behind.

Turn: $58 - J J 4 K rainbow

V1 checks, V2 $21, H flats $21, V1 calls $21

River $121: J J 4 K A

V1 checks, V2 $55, H raise to $175, V 1 folds

Standard or missed value? Anyone raising turn (How much to keep most Kx combos in?) or betting flop?

I'm not super certain I'm correct here but I'd just bet the flop. I think Vs catching up happens too rarely to be worthwhile. For example, if the PFR has AK, he's ~12% to hit something OTT and it's not like you stack him when that happens. Let's assume you get $35 from him OTT and then 75 OTR. (35 + 75) * 0.12 = $13.20. I feel like your expectation on an immediate bet is better than that, because as well as getting the immediate call you increase the size of the pot.

Your check on the flop is really really really bad. When you make hands you have to bet them and build pots. To not do so is a major flaw in your strategy. IE you should be betting all your made hands as well as bluffs in spots like this.

Also, you stated that you decided to "let Vs improve." The big problem with that is that many of our opponents holdings can only improve to a hand that is better than our full house. IE if our opponents have 55+, or Jx if they were to improve then 4s full is no longer any good and we just let them draw for free to a hand that could potentially cost us our stack. 4s full is far from an invulnerable hand here.

An invulnerable hand to slow play would be JJ on this board because we block all the Jacks so the only really strong hand an opponent can have on this board is 44. However, when we have 44 they can have all sorts of combinations of Jx that we can get fat value from.

BTW, I had a hand yesterday where I raised large from the blinds with 8d9d. 3 to the flop. Flop came 883r. I cbet and a player continued with AxXx hand. Turn was an Ace so of course he wasn't going to fold after that. A lot of rec players will actually call with Broadway type hands...perhaps because they might think you are bluffing (c-betting any 2 cards) or perhaps because they figure they have 2 live cards over your pocket pair.

Bet flop

As played, raise turn

LLSNL Vs are huge non-believers on paired flops. Take advantage of that and bet for value.

I agree with the thrust of this but not a lot of the specifics. Letting opponents improve with Jx isn't a consideration, if they make a better full there's nothing we can do about it. If they had 55 they'd likely have bet it, and improvement is pretty unlikely there anyway, so that's really just a footnote. While there's always some chance they find a fold, on a board this dry it's unlikely a V with a jack is going to be able to get away from it, so we can probably just get stacks in on turn or river. If the flop was JJ8 and we had 88, say, there are runouts like T 9 where villains can get cold feet with just trip jacks. I'm still betting flop, but I don't think checking is as egregiously bad as it normally is in these spots for the above reasons. It might be the right play against super ABC weak tight opposition where they're definitely folding unpaired hands OTF.

I completely disagree. This is a fundamental issue that inexperienced recreational players have. They slow play their monsters and put in very few chips in these type of situations where they are far ahead. If you are playing properly you will be getting your opponents to put a ton of chips in the pot when you are ahead and you will put less chips in the pot when they are ahead.

This is a dream flop where you are 77% against a hand like AJ which many will consider the nuts here, and you are 83% against over pairs like Aces. You have the button which should make your bet look very bluffy. Also, live low stakes players are notorious for slow playing their hands (because they are TERRIBLE at poker). This is like the typical spot for a live low stakes player to check their AJ for the same reason that OP is slow playing 44...to let them catch up.

You think any great player is ever checking behind in this spot? Not a chance. You may want to win a piddly pot from someone that picks up a pair or a draw on the turn, but I'm interested in winning a really big pot when there are players in the pot that have hands they can't fold. It should be noted that your opponents can't make mistakes if you don't bet (by checking you allow them to play the flop perfectly vs your holdings).

We don't have a choice about whether they improve but we can choose to charge them to improve.

That flop is an even better flop to bet because you can get value from more straight draw type hands. You should be betting both though.

Thanks for providing some actual math. Based on the table dynamic, betting the flop was likely to get 2 folds. Despite all 3 of use being rec players, we were the 3 best players at the table.

Any non-J hand was simply not paying whatever I was betting on the flop, unless I made it look like a spaz (and made it like $13). If in your games Vs call this flop with random trash, then god bless your games. Remember, this is a paired rainbow board, so any draws would turbo muck to any bet.

I guess this hand isn't really a good candidate for this thread - there was too much context between me and main V.

Wow, this is like reading something from another planet. I'm betting the flop here with AJ like 90% of the time. I couldn't care less what % we are against AJ or AA here, because the likelihood of a V having those on that flop is tiny. We don't flop boats often enough to just assume Vs will flop the 2nd nuts or have AA and get their stacks in, just to blow every other hand in their range out and get $0.

How much?

Results:



In the end, I'm still not convinced about betting flop. I think a turn raise was appropriate however, but I'm not sure about the sizing. Do I just min-click it back or make a real raise?
Wouldn't that make V more likely to check on the river? What sizing do we pick on the river?

Why are you betting the flop with AJ 90% of the time but checking back 44?

As for what I posted reading like it's from another planet, I'm not surprised. Hopefully at some point you'll understand how to play this super trivial spot.


A turn raise is mandatory because you played the flop so poorly but the problem with raising is that it's much scarier to opponents than just straight line betting. You actually overrep your hand by raising this particular turn or river. IE players with a brain are going to assume your range is heavily weighted towards Jacks full hands rather than 4s full.

When you bet the flop your perceived range is super wide. IE villains shouldn't expect you to just bet 4s full here or trip jacks. They should expect you to bet a lone 4, pocket pairs, ace high type hands and flat out air. When you raise the turn you might as well put a sign on your forehead that says "I have Jacks full of Kings"

This makes no sense. Vs are less likely to have hands that can call when you have AJ than when you have 44, because there's one less jack out there.

I don't even disagree with you that flop is probably a bet, but you're being pretty inflexible in your thinking here. For example, these warnings of doom that Vs are going to know what we have sit awkwardly with the actual hand, where OP jammed on the even-more-obvious-he's-full river and V called with a hand that could not beat the worst boat available.

As ever, LLSNL is about exploiting players, not finding theoretically correct lines. I'd bet here to get calls from ace high hands and to ensure stacks go in when someone has a jack, but with OMC-type robotic players who play strict fit or fold and will not fold a jack here come hell or high water, these reasons don't apply. And there are advantages to checking. These advantages are small compared to the risk of stacks not going in vs a jack, which is a massive downside when it happens and is the main reason I'm still betting. But I could imagine situations where I had a good enough read on the opponents to check.

One other thing:

Whether we charge them or not is only relevant if they are ever getting away from a jack. If they aren't, it doesn't matter when the money goes in. If there's any reasonable chance Vs might get away from a jack later in the hand, checking 44 is terrible. And we're mostly not in a position to know that, but sometimes we are.