What to do when I want to 3! to isolate but it doesn't work? I have been working on 3! from LP to isolate a MP raiser. This happened a few times yesterday. Assume 100bb eff. Two limpers, guy makes it 15. I have a 3! hand, make it 40. Next thing you know its 4-5 ways to a flop. I feel like I am just trying to hit the lottery. If I raise more, say to 50-60 and get one caller then I am in a ~100 pot with 150 left. Lets say I c-bet for 50 and get called, I am left with a half size pot bet on the turn.

Never mind I think I am answering my own questions. Need to pick better boards to c-bet on and really have a plan for the turn. Move along.

I would just never get out of line and basically only 3bet hands that I am totally comfortable getting in the rest of stacks on most any flop. You could almost simply do QQ+/AK here.

Gimo,butIamatightnitG

I think this is right. Damn, I still have those fish tendencies, damn.

V showed Qh Jh, and held.

Was surprised to see QJhh, thought he was overpair and big ace only (or possibly set, which is why I nearly folded flop).

Pretty bad play PF by H.

lol @ T9 suited being too 'out of line' from the LJ.

At a 10 handed table (admittedly I've forgotten how many players at OPs table), the LJ has more people yet to react after it than has acted before it and 3 of them have position on us.

It's an extremely marginal hand whose profitability at all but the most ****** filled tables likely revolves around position.

ETA: If you're a superstar, whatever. I'll let you decide OP's superstar status based on how the hand was played after his raise.

Gmeh,imoG

T9s vs the rest of the field giving them random hands

Give us all the T9 suited and it's closer but c'mon dude...

T9s is a fine open utg let alone in the lj; opening 6.6x and calling a 3b oop is the issue...and since when is 115bb eff deep? that's shallow. especially for live poker and especially when we are putting in 22bb pre lol.

Death cab: i am not aiming to get into a huge discussion on whether 10-9 suited is out of line from the LJ or not (i dont think it is), but just comparing equites against other hands like that doesent prove anything or isnt close to telling the whole truth. I see this being done by posters over and over again, to justify a certain play with a certain hand.

For starters, you often dont get to see all 5 cards and thus dont getting to realize the hands full equity, (this is not tournament after all where we would be allin pre as a shortstack shover and guaranteed to see all 5 cards).

Second, you might get 3 bet from one of the players in position and have to play 10 high out of position with even less chance of realizing its true equity due to you might be bluffed off the best hand if you flop a single pair and whatnot.

I am not a nit, and i open 10-9 suited from alot of positions at the table if i feel i have a good edge on the table- but that being said GG have a good point that i would guess _alot_ of players overestimate how profitable they are with opening these kind of hands.

Here lies the problem, GG. T9s is a fold to the 3b pre as played. I'm far from a superstar - this is basic ish.

Petrucci, I could've gotten into the pros and cons of opening here (stack depth, skill of players behind us, chances we're getting 3b, etc). My point was to illustrate how it is a fine hand to open vs random hands. I didn't want to derail the conversation.

As Gil says, it's not as simple as just showing some equity calcs cuz our opponent(s) aren't likely going to simply let us check our hand down postflop (especially if we end up OOP, which we often will).

The profitability of marginal hands also revolves around skill level of OP (as well as skill difference against his opponents). I don't want to pile on OP, but it's pretty clear what we all think of his play in this particular hand. So pretty clear fold for him, imo. I'd like to think I'd play the hand a lot better overall (arguable?), and yet I would *still* fold because I doubt I have that much of a skill advantage over most tables I play at; admittedly, at some tables I'd be itching to get into this pot (mostly by open limping, tbh).

But, if you're both a superstar in general and a superstar compared to the opponents at your table, then obviously folding preflop might not be your best option. And that's all a matter of degrees, much like how things can change the closer we get to the button.

GimoG

Open fold T9s in the LJ only rates about a 3 on the GGNIT Richter Scale, so I was gonna let it go...

Players still finding their way are probably well advised to let it go. But in general, this is such an easy peasy open to 10 in a Live 1-3 game. Yep, we can snap fold to most 3bets - big whoop. Lots of good things can happen postflop in this spot. There's nothing to debate here. If you're not comfortable, fold. Maniac at the table, fold. Running bad or sucky image, fold. But no, it doesn't take a wizard to navigate this spot, lol.

It's not about being whether it takes a wizard to navigate this spot; it's simply whether it's profitable.

I'm sure most of us could fine our way pretty well (especially compared to a lot of our opponents) if we limped 72o UTG. But highly doubt any of us would actually turn a profit with it (the only thing that matters).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I still think it was a good open. This semi-reg doesn't usually 3bet much. I said gets aggressive, but I should have said more so post flop. Likes to fold people out with big bets. Have seen him caught in big bluffs. But 3betting more than others could go with that, so maybe I could be more careful. Anyway, I still think the open is a good decision.

But I agree that it was a bad call of the 3bet.

1/3

Hero opens to 15 with AA UTG, covers table

UTG+1 3! To $35, $500 just sat down a few minutes ago, 50s WG, no history

MP calls, $900, late 20s WG donk who possible plays for a living, does stupid **** if given the chance

Btn calls, $500, just sat down 20ish minutes ago, 20s WG

What's heros sizing for a 4!?

Or does anyone call and see a flop 4ways?

Size it up to get 1 caller, preferably MP.

I wouldn't go less than $200 here, setting up for a trivial commitment on the flop for either short stack or a flop bet + turn shove against the MP Villain (on safe runouts)

Definitely not flatting and giving everyone odds to setmine.

I'm in the camp of thought that seeing a 4-way flop OOP with AA is the nut low result.

$125 or so. We are pretty ok with 2 callers at that sizing. $175 on most flops and shove most turns against the $500 stacks.
Against the $900 deeper stacked player could be a bit more questionable.

Don't you think we should go $1000, just to be safe?

Flatting would be awful. I like 150, but maybe 100 on top is better psychologically.

Thanks for the responses

I never thought of flatting because I would have been OOP to everyone.

I made it 150

UTG quickly folded
MP tanked, cut out chips and eventually folded, seemingly very reluctantly
Btn folded pretty quick


Alternatively, I thought about it afterwards, maybe just making it YUGE, like 200-250, just to make it look more like "I didn't want a call" because of MP's tendencies to do stupid stuff.

Sounds like $125 was the perfect price. =)

possibly

If the other person has to show first by rule, do you guys always make people show first if you are curious what they have even if you have a nutted hand? If it’s a friendly fish having a good time or just a loose fun game I wouldn’t do it but what about just some random guy? I feel like I’m often too quick to just show and maybe should make people show more often.