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That's the whole reason this is a discussion. Villain(LAG) cbets strong/overbet. The hand will not go 4 way to the turn. Lag shows strength we c/r other villains fold, easy game.

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01-29-2012 , 11:25 PM

#102

Garick

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So, my thought was an ideal situation would be to get one or both of the fish in the hand and (unbeknownst to them) basically committed, and the thinking LAG either out, or have the SPR be so low that our play against him could be pretty automatic.

My thought is that a smaller than average 3-bet would be good here. Somewhere between min and PSB, was my thought. Thoughts?

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01-29-2012 , 11:26 PM

#103

endodocdc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PokahBlows

That's the whole reason this is a discussion. Villain(LAG) cbets strong/overbet. The hand will not go 4 way to the turn. Lag shows strength we c/r other villains fold, easy game.

C/r flop is pretty bad.. the plan to flat pre is to get a cbet out of the LAG and one or both of the other villains to come along (or shove)

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01-29-2012 , 11:32 PM

#104

endodocdc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Garick

My thought is that a smaller than average 3-bet would be good here. Somewhere between min and PSB, was my thought. Thoughts?

But you said there hasn't been any 3betting at this table. Are the fish aware of this? What would the LAG think about your 3bet sizing? can he level himself to think your squeezing here (even though it doesn't jive with your sizing)?

If you think the fish can limp/flat a 3bet then nh/wp...I don't think the chances of that happening are high enough to offset the heat you will face from the LAG ( who can call your 3bet) on most boards

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01-29-2012 , 11:35 PM

#105

SeaUlater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PokahBlows

That's the whole reason this is a discussion. Villain(LAG) cbets strong/overbet. The hand will not go 4 way to the turn. Lag shows strength we c/r other villains fold, easy game.

Well, your oversimplification of the scenario on flop is no different than others saying that 3-bet will take down the pot pre-flop.

Assuming villain overbets the flop to $70, are we hoping that if we flat, V1 or V3 would shove, or are we CR'ing the flop and hope for...what?

V1 or V3 shoving seems to be the best scenario out of all, but what if both of them or one of them flat? Then what?

So the other option is to CR, but then that opens up a can of worm...making 3-bet pre so much more attractive.

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01-29-2012 , 11:37 PM

#106

SeaUlater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by endodocdc

What's wrong with 3-betting pre to be HU vs LAG?

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01-29-2012 , 11:41 PM

#107

PokahBlows

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Quote:

Originally Posted by endodocdc

C/r flop is pretty bad.. the plan to flat pre is to get a cbet out of the LAG and one or both of the other villains to come along (or shove)

Meh, your plan is to wait for someone else to shove/multi way turn?

My target is the lag and I'm going with the aggressive move to force him to overplay his hand otf.

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01-29-2012 , 11:42 PM

#108

Garick

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Quote:

What's wrong with 3-betting pre to be HU vs LAG?

This also seems like a good outcome to me, though his range is wide enough here that I think only the high end of it calls, at least if both fish fold. If one calls, he might call wider, which sounds just about perfect to me.

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01-29-2012 , 11:42 PM

#109

endodocdc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaUlater

V1 or V3 shoving seems to be the best scenario out of all, but what if both of them or one of them flat? Then what?

One or both flatting flop is nirvana.....we then lead turn. Remember one is described as a gambloor and the other overvalues TP type hands.
Also, it is so easy to play this hand when it's under rep'ed, and can be so +EV if we play it well.

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01-29-2012 , 11:44 PM

#110

SeaUlater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PokahBlows

My target is the lag and I'm going with the aggressive move to force him to overplay his hand otf.

Really? Do you think LAG has the same bluffing range as his stacking off range or his calling range?

That's a gross misunderstanding of how to deal with LAG.

Last edited by SeaUlater; 01-29-2012 at 11:49 PM.

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01-29-2012 , 11:49 PM

#111

SeaUlater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by endodocdc

Ok, so the flop is ~$60, V2 c-bets $70 on the flop, hero flat and both or one of the villains flat.

On the turn, hero has $415, V1 with $115, and V2 with >$500. I am removing V3 because V3 is probably not calling $70 with $105 behind, so he's likely shoving the flop or folding.

Pot is $270 on turn and hero is leading how much? I don't see how I can like this scenario at all.

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01-29-2012 , 11:49 PM

#112

Garick

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Quote:

My target is the lag and I'm going with the aggressive move to force him to overplay his hand otf

If we flat, I don't see how were getting 250BB into the pot with a LAG who usually shuts down after the flop if he doesn't have at least TPTK. If we 3-bet, pot is big enough pre (at least 30BBs and maybe as many as 85,depending on sizing and number of callers)), that we can realistically commit and (more importantly) likely get the LAG to commit.

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01-29-2012 , 11:59 PM

#113

endodocdc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaUlater

What's wrong with 3-betting pre to be HU vs LAG?

Ok let's look at it. OP suggested a PS raise. So let's say hero 3bets to $35 and the LAG calls. Pot will be $70.
Flop comes XYZ, hero bets $50 and:
1) LAG folds hero scoops $70
2) LAG raises and hero??? folds?
3) LAG calls...pot is $170. What is our plan on turn? b/f? ch/call? ch/fold?

Flatting pre..pot is $60 and:
1) checks around to LAG who bets $60...Hero should FLAT
2) one of the fish donks ( or shoves) and LAG calls
3) one of the fish donks ( or shoves) and LAG folds

Can you see it is much easier to play this hand flatting and it has a much higher EV potential than 3betting?

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01-30-2012 , 12:03 AM

#114

SeaUlater

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I don't see how a 3 or 4-way pot going into turn OOP with an overpair is easier than HU against LAG.

Your options for HU can be a bit wider; we can switch gear and play our hand as bluff catcher.

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01-30-2012 , 12:05 AM

#115

PokahBlows

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaUlater

Really? Do you think LAG has the same bluffing range as his stacking off range or his calling range?

That's a gross misunderstanding of how to deal with LAG.

The lag we are dealing with cbets 100% and overbets. We can only exploit that postflop. 3betting pre taking the lead let's him play perfect in position.

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01-30-2012 , 12:07 AM

#116

endodocdc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaUlater

I don't see how a 3 or 4-way pot going into turn OOP with an overpair is easier than HU against LAG.

You can lead turn because your perceived range is much wider, and you will NEVER get bluffraised by a good LAG. A good LAG is good because he can see situations where he can apply pressure or fold and not get too tanged up in a hand

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01-30-2012 , 12:08 AM

#117

DevinLake

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PokahBlows

The lag we are dealing with cbets 100%

why is everyone assuming that a guy described as decent lag is cbetting 100% in 4 way pots? It would be bad to cbet 100% and our description of him is that he is not bad. No where did OP say he cbet 100%.

someone mentioned when I asked this before that he would because everyone checked to him...all everyone checking to him is an indication of is that he was the pfr. And if you all think cbetting here 100% is good...then well...

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01-30-2012 , 12:09 AM

#118

SeaUlater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by endodocdc

Isn't that a better argument used for HU vs LAG than donking turn into 2 or 3 players?

Ps. Your response would be quite fitting to Pokah's post above.

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01-30-2012 , 12:12 AM

#119

SeaUlater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PokahBlows

The lag we are dealing with cbets 100% and overbets. We can only exploit that postflop. 3betting pre taking the lead let's him play perfect in position.

So your plan is to basically get him to put in more money on the flop before you take it down with a raise?

You pretty much nullified your own previous post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokahBlows

My target is the lag and I'm going with the aggressive move to force him to overplay his hand otf.

Or did you mean overplay as in c-betting, or overplay as in he will call your CR?

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01-30-2012 , 12:13 AM

#120

Garick

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Quote:

The lag we are dealing with cbets 100% and overbets

The lag we are dealing with c-bets often, but def not 100%. Not sure where you got that idea. His c-bets are often overbets, but not always, and I def don't think he over c-bets 100% against 4 villains.

There are more specific reads on him from earlier in the session here : http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-tpgk-1159659/

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01-30-2012 , 12:14 AM

#121

endodocdc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaUlater

Isn't that a better argument used for HU vs LAG than donking turn into 2 or 3 players?

Ps. Your response would be quite fitting to Pokah's post above.

No it's not a better argument for HU vs. LAG because hero's 3bet range is so f'ing narrow in this spot that a good LAG can pwn hero on a ton of flops.

lol...the only congruency Pokahblow and i have is in flatting pre.

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01-30-2012 , 12:21 AM

#122

PokahBlows

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaUlater

So your plan is to basically get him to put in more money on the flop before you take it down with a raise?

You pretty much nullified your own previous post:

Or did you mean overplay as in c-betting, or overplay as in he will call your CR?

Overplay on how he will react to our c/r with certain hands. Draws,TPTK(that we beat obviously) and combo draws.

If the flop comes A/K high, I would be c/r'ing as a bluff. With a decent size I can let go. Basically a c/r:b/f.

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01-30-2012 , 12:21 AM

#123

SeaUlater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by endodocdc

No it's not a better argument for HU vs. LAG because hero's 3bet range is so f'ing narrow in this spot that a good LAG can pwn hero on a ton of flops.

I see some conflicting information.

Wouldn't it make more sense to bluff-raise a wide range than to bluff-raise a narrow range?