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Old 12-07-2018, 06:02 PM   #26
mikko
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Post Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Hand 1. If we are gonna PFR, we should try to steal. The pot sweetener thing... it can be OK, IF you are good at exploiting the fact that people ignore pot sizes. But you have position anyway, so something like leading 1/5 pot with a draw isn't really a play you'll be using a lot.

I also dislike raising hands, like bad aces, where my hand will be overepped on the flop when it hits. In other words, when you PFR and an ace hits, it sort of looks like you have a strong ace, but you actually have a crappy one. It's hard to value bet in that scenario. So now you have to either bet purely for protection, which isn't so good. Or you have to try to change your story to, "I don't have an ace after all, so try to bluff me, or call the turn or river with second pair."

So, again, with several limpers I'd much prefer to try taking it down pre, or just limping.

---

Hand 2. Bad call pre.

I don't really mind the bluff or combo bet or whatever OTF. I'd be pretty shocked if the PFR bet an overpair+ so small into a multiway pot with draws out there. Most people have gotten out of the way. You can rep a set. You have some equity. Hands like JT will often fold. If he did make such a weak bet with an overpair, he could very well fold it by the river.

Keep it up on the turn.

River is a weird spot. It looks for all the world like he has a draw, or perhaps is trapping. Assume you're shoving bricks?

I don't know how often worse calls. Like AsKs?

I might just throw out some ridiculously small blocker bet, hoping to get a sigh call from some random pair, or to induce once in a blue moon.
Hand 1: limping is fine. Actually do it often with these ragged suited aces. But I am not gonna bigger pre. It is like pounding your head into break wall. It just doesn't do anything besides cost you more preflop and make pot unbearably big.

Hand 2: was not bluffing river. Figure my punt had been blocked. And was time to face the music.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:12 PM   #27
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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If you didn't shove, were you leaning to check calling?

.
Not sure. Leaning towards check folding. But honestly I felt he would check most rivers.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:45 PM   #28
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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$16 has no chance in this game to go HU....every limper is calling up to $20 on average. Still raising $16 if it likely it goes 3-4 ways?

I Don't like results if I raise to $20. But that would generate some folds.

I am fairly content playing a suited Ace 3-5ways in position. Rarely not seeing at least first 4 cards and realizing our equity. Just prefer to raise smaller as it little easier to play post and saves me few BB.

This is 10 handed super loose game. HU pots are almost extinct. There was 1 chop in my 7 hour session
It doesn't need to be HU. HU or 3-ways is fine. Bloating a pot 5-ways with A5ss, no kicker with SPR of 2-3 is not the type of postflop situation we're looking for. Lots of players will limps any Ace and even hands as strong as AJo and AQo, A6s-AQs. Either pump it up to a sizing that will lead to HU or 3-ways with >50% probability, or overlimp. Making a sweetener raise here doesn't make much sense. Would you do the same with 55 here? Personally, I'd overlimp 22-77 in a heartbeat, 88-99 mixed frequeencies w/ 99 mostly raising, and 1010+ snap raising.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:50 PM   #29
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

limp pre
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:16 PM   #30
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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It doesn't need to be HU. HU or 3-ways is fine. Bloating a pot 5-ways with A5ss, no kicker with SPR of 2-3 is not the type of postflop situation we're looking for. Lots of players will limps any Ace and even hands as strong as AJo and AQo, A6s-AQs. Either pump it up to a sizing that will lead to HU or 3-ways with >50% probability, or overlimp. Making a sweetener raise here doesn't make much sense. Would you do the same with 55 here? Personally, I'd overlimp 22-77 in a heartbeat, 88-99 mixed frequeencies w/ 99 mostly raising, and 1010+ snap raising.
You realize. 3 ways $16, gives you same exact SPR as 4 ways at $12. People limp/call ranges are not changing dramatically from $12-16 dollars. Yet times we are going to win pot doesn't change dramatically.

In both cases. I am just giving up 50% of time postflop.
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Old 12-07-2018, 09:34 PM   #31
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Grunch.

The preflop raise seems pretty pointless on H1, this is a hand that likes implied odds and lots of opponents. I'd generally call the turn because it's a good price, we have outs vs everything and I'm a bit dubious that a flush makes this weak lead, but it's a live read situation and I might fold against some players.

H2: Preflop is awful obviously. I hate this attack line you're running, while V bet an absurdly small amount he did bet into a zillion players. Obviously shove river. I hope he had JJ, frankly.
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Old 12-07-2018, 09:56 PM   #32
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Grunch.

The preflop raise seems pretty pointless on H1, this is a hand that likes implied odds and lots of opponents. I'd generally call the turn because it's a good price, we have outs vs everything and I'm a bit dubious that a flush makes this weak lead, but it's a live read situation and I might fold against some players.

H2: Preflop is awful obviously. I hate this attack line you're running, while V bet an absurdly small amount he did bet into a zillion players. Obviously shove river. I hope he had JJ, frankly.
H1: Maybe I play to much PLO. And it is second nature to fold 2 pair when flush comes home. Maybe I should run some numbers to see if 4 outs plus spazz =call. Seems to be majority of guys like call.

Just to end that topic. He showed flush after taking a good ribbing from table about making me show my hand. Like I said. Generally I am sticky and calling here a ton. But his range was heavily weighted to flush in this spot, and his body language said he had it.

H2: I'm aggro. It works for me. I tighten up when have to. Actually was playing very tight during this session, but was smashed with deck so still looked super loose.

It's highly unlikely I run into the 1 combo of JJ he can have. Add in fact he doesn't just jam turn with virtual nuts. That would happen......never.....but maybe he thought I would fold another strong hand so he was just waiting. More likely he would want to gii with flush draw still present.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:40 PM   #33
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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H2: I'm aggro. It works for me.
Well sure, but this is the guy you're up against here:

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Seems loose... Was stacked by nit with awful call on paired board in limped pot.
It's hard to read the $12 bet into $56 because it makes no sense. I'd probably just assume the guy is clueless about bet sizing. But when he bets out into, what, 8 opponents? I'm assuming he doesn't have no pairs, no draws. The conclusion from all this is that you are trying to blast a guy famous for making awful calldowns off some sort of hand. Not convinced this is a profitable enterprise.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:59 PM   #34
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Well sure, but this is the guy you're up against here:



It's hard to read the $12 bet into $56 because it makes no sense. I'd probably just assume the guy is clueless about bet sizing. But when he bets out into, what, 8 opponents? I'm assuming he doesn't have no pairs, no draws. The conclusion from all this is that you are trying to blast a guy famous for making awful calldowns off some sort of hand. Not convinced this is a profitable enterprise.
Quad also brought up the fact I don't have the correct info to run this bluff. Likely reason I posted it. Also just wanted to see where discussion went.

Is main reason I decided to abandon a 3 barrel.
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:14 AM   #35
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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You realize. 3 ways $16, gives you same exact SPR as 4 ways at $12. People limp/call ranges are not changing dramatically from $12-16 dollars. Yet times we are going to win pot doesn't change dramatically.

In both cases. I am just giving up 50% of time postflop.
I’d much rather have 3-way SPR 3 rather than 5-way SPR 3.

Also, if their limp/call range doesnt change dramatically, bump it up to $18 or $20. You’re saying their limp/calling ranges are completely inelastic which isnt true. There’s a threshold where if you bump it up the FE you generate should go up exponentially.

Also when I gave $16 it was the lower end of the range, there’s $17-$20 as well and im sure one of the other raise sizes elicits what we want.

If you think they’re actually that elastic, just overlimp pre. Problem solved. I personally overlimp or make it $18-$20, depending on table dynamics (ie if theyre sticky post im more inclined to overlimp, if they play fit or fold post raise big pre). Making it $12 guarantees you a 4-5 way pot almost everytime
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Old 12-08-2018, 06:02 AM   #36
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Iíd much rather have 3-way SPR 3 rather than 5-way SPR 3.

Also, if their limp/call range doesnt change dramatically, bump it up to $18 or $20. Youíre saying their limp/calling ranges are completely inelastic which isnt true. Thereís a threshold where if you bump it up the FE you generate should go up exponentially.

Also when I gave $16 it was the lower end of the range, thereís $17-$20 as well and im sure one of the other raise sizes elicits what we want.

If you think theyíre actually that elastic, just overlimp pre. Problem solved. I personally overlimp or make it $18-$20, depending on table dynamics (ie if theyre sticky post im more inclined to overlimp, if they play fit or fold post raise big pre). Making it $12 guarantees you a 4-5 way pot almost everytime
Ya I know 2+2 preflop strat. Done beating dead horse.
I don't want to pick up $10 pots with my premiums. Especially with suited Ax which has massive implied odds. Don't want guys to limp/fold bottom of their range and call with top of it.

You likely have no plan postflop when you raise to $18 with A5. By that, I mean you likely don't know how often you will be cbetting. For one you have no clue how many callers you will get. In my game. Likely 80% of limpers and 1 blind, except in this case both blinds where tight.

Getting to see the 4th card with many hands is very beneficial. By raising even small (in your opinion ) I pick up 4th card for free. Realizing equity in a lot of spots with my whole range.

How important is that 4th card? Extremely when you have hand that flops weak top pair rarely or draws. We flop a back door flush draw on 41% of boards. When majority of raising range is suited it adds up.

Let's say I play 200 hands per session. Raise 20% preflop (that is low for me). That is 40 hands. 40◊$6 is $240 or 120BB.

So I have done the math. Both with how often I will be cbetting, and how many callers I can expect. Everything leads to smaller sizing pre IMO in these loose 1/2 and 1/3 games.

Live poker is played multi-way. You can fight it. Or accept it. I am done fighting it.
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Old 12-08-2018, 06:16 AM   #37
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

The correct answer is "overlimp pre", the entire rest of the discussion is angels on the head of a pin stuff
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:44 AM   #38
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Ya I know 2+2 preflop strat. Done beating dead horse.
I don't want to pick up $10 pots with my premiums. Especially with suited Ax which has massive implied odds. Don't want guys to limp/fold bottom of their range and call with top of it.

You likely have no plan postflop when you raise to $18 with A5. By that, I mean you likely don't know how often you will be cbetting. For one you have no clue how many callers you will get. In my game. Likely 80% of limpers and 1 blind, except in this case both blinds where tight.

Getting to see the 4th card with many hands is very beneficial. By raising even small (in your opinion ) I pick up 4th card for free. Realizing equity in a lot of spots with my whole range.

How important is that 4th card? Extremely when you have hand that flops weak top pair rarely or draws. We flop a back door flush draw on 41% of boards. When majority of raising range is suited it adds up.

Let's say I play 200 hands per session. Raise 20% preflop (that is low for me). That is 40 hands. 40◊$6 is $240 or 120BB.

So I have done the math. Both with how often I will be cbetting, and how many callers I can expect. Everything leads to smaller sizing pre IMO in these loose 1/2 and 1/3 games.

Live poker is played multi-way. You can fight it. Or accept it. I am done fighting it.
You're not as good as you think you are
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:34 PM   #39
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Ya I know 2+2 preflop strat. Done beating dead horse.
I don't want to pick up $10 pots with my premiums. Especially with suited Ax which has massive implied odds. Don't want guys to limp/fold bottom of their range and call with top of it.

You likely have no plan postflop when you raise to $18 with A5. By that, I mean you likely don't know how often you will be cbetting. For one you have no clue how many callers you will get. In my game. Likely 80% of limpers and 1 blind, except in this case both blinds where tight.

Getting to see the 4th card with many hands is very beneficial. By raising even small (in your opinion ) I pick up 4th card for free. Realizing equity in a lot of spots with my whole range.

How important is that 4th card? Extremely when you have hand that flops weak top pair rarely or draws. We flop a back door flush draw on 41% of boards. When majority of raising range is suited it adds up.

Let's say I play 200 hands per session. Raise 20% preflop (that is low for me). That is 40 hands. 40◊$6 is $240 or 120BB.

So I have done the math. Both with how often I will be cbetting, and how many callers I can expect. Everything leads to smaller sizing pre IMO in these loose 1/2 and 1/3 games.

Live poker is played multi-way. You can fight it. Or accept it. I am done fighting it.
If you know everything and have poker solved, why post on 2+2?

A5ss /= premium.

Yea, I do have a plan when i raise to $18 w/ A5ss. I also do know my ranges and what board textures I’m cbetting; I’ve done a lot flop study. Saying I dont have a plan for post is pretty presumptuous.

When did I ever say that in my opinion you get a 4th card for free if you raise small?

If anything, the probability of you getting a free card decreases as the number of players go up. Say there are 8 people in pot #1 and 3 people in pot #2. You’re basically saying because of x raise size vs y raise size, pot #2 which has a gazillion less people is somehow going to let me see the 4th card at a higher proportion which makes no sense.

You cannot be serious when you say you’ve done the math with how many callers you get. That’s subjective probability. You cannot prove that if you raise to $18-$20 get 80% limpers and 1 blind caller on average. If you’re literally getting 4 callers everytime you 10x it, you should be 10x’ing with your premiums as well which you’re probably not because that’s not true. That’s literally almost impossible for a table to be that good (not saying it is 100% impossible).

And where are you even getting $6 from or 120BB? I’m assuming you’re saying an extra turn gives you $6? How do you know that if you have an SPR of 3 with 3 callers you’re less likely to see the turn than an SPR of 3 with 5 callers? And even if that were true for whatever reason, why arent you subtracting it from the expected amount of turns you get from the SPR of 3 with 5 callers (difference in means). Your math seems all over the place.

I get that live poker goes mulitway.

Overlimp pre. Problem solved.

Bloating it with A high 5 way SPR 2-3 w/ no kicker is not the solution.

Overlimp pre >>>>>>> $18-$20 >> $12

Last edited by Minatorr; 12-08-2018 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:23 PM   #40
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

H1. The horse hasn’t been beaten enough. In this game from btn w multiple limps, you’d like to overlimp bc you do better keeping things cheap pre so more hands remain in V ranges that make you money post when you nut your hand. More dead horse beating, flop equity distribution wise the A2s prefers a 1bb flop, especially considering 345 and 22x boards still are not going to be auto-stack offs in a limped 1-2 pot.

H2. This V has showed you enough in that one HH to force you to be more value heavy than normal. I don’t care about spewing pre if the table is bad enough, but taking an aggressive line post against a guy with fewer folds just for the sake of being aggressive is bad. You aren’t aggressively playing a sound range, you’re just playing a hand to try and win a hand in what amounts to a bluff that has to succeed against the guy you shouldn’t bluff in a spot where you should just always have him dead. It’s a punt.
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:50 PM   #41
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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H2. This V has showed you enough in that one HH to force you to be more value heavy than normal. I don’t care about spewing pre if the table is bad enough, but taking an aggressive line post against a guy with fewer folds just for the sake of being aggressive is bad. You aren’t aggressively playing a sound range, you’re just playing a hand to try and win a hand in what amounts to a bluff that has to succeed against the guy you shouldn’t bluff in a spot where you should just always have him dead. It’s a punt.
H2: You get all that from him calling a flush draw and leading when he hits? Majority of our player pool is calling with flush draw there. Hoping to stack aggro guy.
Also had a Top pair. I'm lucky he got passive didn't ship the flop.
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:55 PM   #42
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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If you know everything and have poker solved, why post on 2+2?

A5ss /= premium.

Yea, I do have a plan when i raise to $18 w/ A5ss. I also do know my ranges and what board textures Iím cbetting; Iíve done a lot flop study. Saying I dont have a plan for post is pretty presumptuous.

When did I ever say that in my opinion you get a 4th card for free if you raise small?

If anything, the probability of you getting a free card decreases as the number of players go up. Say there are 8 people in pot #1 and 3 people in pot #2. Youíre basically saying because of x raise size vs y raise size, pot #2 which has a gazillion less people is somehow going to let me see the 4th card at a higher proportion which makes no sense.

You cannot be serious when you say youíve done the math with how many callers you get. Thatís subjective probability. You cannot prove that if you raise to $18-$20 get 80% limpers and 1 blind caller on average. If youíre literally getting 4 callers everytime you 10x it, you should be 10xíing with your premiums as well which youíre probably not because thatís not true. Thatís literally almost impossible for a table to be that good (not saying it is 100% impossible).

And where are you even getting $6 from or 120BB? Iím assuming youíre saying an extra turn gives you $6? How do you know that if you have an SPR of 3 with 3 callers youíre less likely to see the turn than an SPR of 3 with 5 callers? And even if that were true for whatever reason, why arent you subtracting it from the expected amount of turns you get from the SPR of 3 with 5 callers (difference in means). Your math seems all over the place.

I get that live poker goes mulitway.

Overlimp pre. Problem solved.

Bloating it with A high 5 way SPR 2-3 w/ no kicker is not the solution.

Overlimp pre >>>>>>> $18-$20 >> $12
$18-$12=$6
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:04 PM   #43
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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H2: You get all that from him calling a flush draw and leading when he hits? Majority of our player pool is calling with flush draw there. Hoping to stack aggro guy.
Also had a Top pair. I'm lucky he got passive didn't ship the flop.
ĎWas stacked by nit with awful call on paired board in limped pot. On his first orbit.í
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:49 PM   #44
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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You likely have no plan postflop when you raise to $18 with A5. By that, I mean you likely don't know how often you will be cbetting. For one you have no clue how many callers you will get. In my game. Likely 80% of limpers and 1 blind, except in this case both blinds where tight.

Getting to see the 4th card with many hands is very beneficial. By raising even small (in your opinion ) I pick up 4th card for free. Realizing equity in a lot of spots with my whole range.

How important is that 4th card? Extremely when you have hand that flops weak top pair rarely or draws. We flop a back door flush draw on 41% of boards. When majority of raising range is suited it adds up.

Let's say I play 200 hands per session. Raise 20% preflop (that is low for me). That is 40 hands. 40◊$6 is $240 or 120BB.

$18-$12=$6
The $18-$12=$6 is pretty far from the paragraph where you referenced the raise sizes and you gave no reference, but okay. I also didn't say to up your RFI size, just specifically your iso-raising range (which is probably 3-6% of the time).

By that logic, why don't we overlimp and do $12-$3=$9, and we save that $9 pre over however many hands? We still get a 5-6 way pot and save a lot of money, rather than spending an extra $9 to get 4-6 way anyway if we raise to $12. Money saved is money earned.

Last edited by Minatorr; 12-08-2018 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:02 PM   #45
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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H1. The horse hasnít been beaten enough. In this game from btn w multiple limps, youíd like to overlimp bc you do better keeping things cheap pre so more hands remain in V ranges that make you money post when you nut your hand. More dead horse beating, flop equity distribution wise the A2s prefers a 1bb flop, especially considering 345 and 22x boards still are not going to be auto-stack offs in a limped 1-2 pot.

H2. This V has showed you enough in that one HH to force you to be more value heavy than normal. I donít care about spewing pre if the table is bad enough, but taking an aggressive line post against a guy with fewer folds just for the sake of being aggressive is bad. You arenít aggressively playing a sound range, youíre just playing a hand to try and win a hand in what amounts to a bluff that has to succeed against the guy you shouldnít bluff in a spot where you should just always have him dead. Itís a punt.
+1 to all the advice, and bolded is very interesting
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Old 12-09-2018, 12:00 AM   #46
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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The $18-$12=$6 is pretty far from the paragraph where you referenced the raise sizes and you gave no reference, but okay. I also didn't say to up your RFI size, just specifically your iso-raising range (which is probably 3-6% of the time).

By that logic, why don't we overlimp and do $12-$3=$9, and we save that $9 pre over however many hands? We still get a 5-6 way pot and save a lot of money, rather than spending an extra $9 to get 4-6 way anyway if we raise to $12. Money saved is money earned.
You do save a ton over limping. Which I do alot. At no point have I argued against over limping. My raise size was chosen to be able to easily get stacks in play. Mostly under my control. Really hard to get stacks in after overlimping though. Even with my loose image. I would struggle to get 175- 200BB in. Even flush over flush on table of mostly passive regs.

But done with preflop strategy. Won't comment again. Can debate amongst yourselves.

IMO
Limp is fine hand 1. ISO raising is trash with loose image and loose dynamics. Nit could ISO in this game to $25 and likely pick up 3 callers. Only takes 1 call to "pot odds" people in.
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Old 12-09-2018, 12:46 AM   #47
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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You do save a ton over limping. Which I do alot. At no point have I argued against over limping. My raise size was chosen to be able to easily get stacks in play. Mostly under my control. Really hard to get stacks in after overlimping though. Even with my loose image. I would struggle to get 175- 200BB in. Even flush over flush on table of mostly passive regs.

But done with preflop strategy. Won't comment again. Can debate amongst yourselves.

IMO
Limp is fine hand 1. ISO raising is trash with loose image and loose dynamics. Nit could ISO in this game to $25 and likely pick up 3 callers. Only takes 1 call to "pot odds" people in.
Do you make it 10x-12.5x with your premiums then if a nit can raise to $25 and pick up 3 callers? Your image works in your favor with this loose dynamic/table, doesn't it?

Because if that statement wrt nit is true and given your image, if you aren't making it that large of a raise size, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

Last edited by Minatorr; 12-09-2018 at 12:52 AM.
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