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Old 12-07-2018, 12:54 PM   #1
mikko
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Not GG approved....line check

1/2 10 handed
Crazy action, wild game, lots $6 straddles and squeezing

Table is all regs.

Hero $350: Lag, super active today because deck has smashed me in face. But losing and starting to tilt do to awful postflop runouts.

V: just sat down. Is reg but haven't played with him much. Seems loose weak aggressive (if that makes sense). Was stacked by nit with awful call on paired board in limped pot. On his first orbit.

1 orbit prior to this hand.

He limps EP, 3 other limpers.
Hero opens $12 with A2ss on button.
4 ways to flop

A-2h-8h. $60
V leads $15 (now obvious awful fish)
Mp limper calls, Hero raise to $70
V calls, Mp folds.

Turn:6h
V leads $60, Hero folds and shows A2 to friend of coarse V asks to see hand like a mut and by rule I show.

----------------------
Effective stack $350 ish
V opens utg+1 to $7
6 callers
Hero calls SB with 64o,
BB (nit calls)

Flop $56
Js-6s-2d

V leads $12 everyone fold to Hero
Hero raises to $60
Nit starts cussing. I know he has Jack.
Nit folds but
V calls


Turn:Kc $190ish


Hero bets $120
V calls

River: 4d

Hero shoves????



Flame away. Not gonna defend preflop call. Because it has been hashed over a million times. Sometimes I would fold. But tilted and stuck and about to leave I can admit I am rarely folding anyhand in this spot. Which is definitely a leak. But small leak given it is rare. Even 4 ways I snap fold pre (even tilted)

Last edited by mikko; 12-07-2018 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:24 PM   #2
thin_slicing
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Only fishes play 64

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...ve-up-1729824/
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:24 PM   #3
josofo
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikko View Post
1/2 10 handed
Crazy action, wild game, lots $6 straddles and squeezing

Table is all regs.

Hero $350: Lag, super active today because deck has smashed me in face. But losing and starting to tilt do to awful postflop runouts.

V: just sat down. Is reg but haven't played with him much. Seems loose weak aggressive (if that makes sense). Was stacked by nit with awful call on paired board in limped pot. On his first orbit.

1 orbit prior to this hand.

He limps EP, 3 other limpers.
Hero opens $12 with A2ss on button.
4 ways to flop

A-2h-8h. $60
V leads $15 (now obvious awful fish)
Mp limper calls, Hero raise to $70
V calls, Mp folds.

Turn:6h
V leads $60, Hero folds and shows A2 to friend of coarse V asks to see hand like a mut and by rule I show.

----------------------
Effective stack $350 ish
V opens utg+1 to $7
6 callers
Hero calls SB with 64o,
BB (nit calls)

Flop $56
Js-6s-2d

V leads $12 everyone fold to Hero
Hero raises to $60
Nit starts cussing. I know he has Jack.
Nit folds but
V calls


Turn:Kc $190ish


Hero bets $120
V calls

River: 4d

Hero shoves????



Flame away. Not gonna defend preflop call. Because it has been hashed over a million times. Sometimes I would fold. But tilted and stuck and about to leave I can admit I am rarely folding anyhand in this spot. Which is definitely a leak. But small leak given it is rare. Even 4 ways I snap fold pretty (even tilted)
hand 1- mainly i would call and see the river. folding is fine to, because i do think you are right that he has you beat hear a lot but some villians really overvalue an ace. for example i have seen villians flip over ak or aq in this spot like its the nuts. you can also go a bit bigger on the flop because of the people hate folding an ace rule, like 85 or 90.

hand 2
a lot of times you would hear about it earlier if he had a set of jacks, 2s,kings or kj so instinct wise i do think he is going to have a-j here about as much as he has the hands that beat you. i don't think you can really fold river having invested so much in making your hand so your shove is good i feel. like you are not folding, your just unlucky or lucky to make your hand, your about to find out which.

as far as how i feel about running huge bluffs in like 6 way pots? not something i really do.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:37 PM   #4
wait
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Stopped reading at hero opens $12
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:56 PM   #5
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by wait View Post
Stopped reading at hero opens $12
I call that bluff with Jack high.
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:04 PM   #6
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by josofo View Post
hand 1- mainly i would call and see the river. folding is fine to, because i do think you are right that he has you beat hear a lot but some villians really overvalue an ace. for example i have seen villians flip over ak or aq in this spot like its the nuts. you can also go a bit bigger on the flop because of the people hate folding an ace rule, like 85 or 90.

hand 2
a lot of times you would hear about it earlier if he had a set of jacks, 2s,kings or kj so instinct wise i do think he is going to have a-j here about as much as he has the hands that beat you. i don't think you can really fold river having invested so much in making your hand so your shove is good i feel. like you are not folding, your just unlucky or lucky to make your hand, your about to find out which.

as far as how i feel about running huge bluffs in like 6 way pots? not something i really do.
Hand 1

Fairly easy fold IMO. I have nut low of my range (besides bluffs, which just got there)....Ak, AQ, I likely also raise. So, folding AK, AQ and A2 is okay with. I am loaded with flushes in this spot. So if he is bluffing or blocking bet here. I will know in quick order. Body language also played big part.

Hand 2....waiting for few responses to defend my careless ways.

Thanks
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:46 PM   #7
QuadJ
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Preflop is actually fine. For such a small raise you can see the flop and hope for something favorable.

Flop raise seem really ambitious but not terrible once almost everybody has folded. The turn carry through is aggressive but not terrible, if your going to take this sort of line you need to fire at least twice a lot. River is an odd situation because you now have a hand good enough that villain can call with worse and you should be beating most of villain's hands.

Really, the whole thing looks overly aggressive and you got lucky on the river. You don't have enough information on villain yet to know if they are weak/stationary or what sort of range they have for calling flop raise. So your making a pretty blind bluff with a weak made hand and go lucky to catch a good one by the river.
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:50 PM   #8
Leobzook
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Well given his tiny flop bet he is probably on some sort of flush draw. Doesn't seem to be the type to bluff a missed draw so need to shove now and hope to get called by Ksxs

were you shoving river unimproved?
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:57 PM   #9
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
Preflop is actually fine. For such a small raise you can see the flop and hope for something favorable.

Flop raise seem really ambitious but not terrible once almost everybody has folded. The turn carry through is aggressive but not terrible, if your going to take this sort of line you need to fire at least twice a lot. River is an odd situation because you now have a hand good enough that villain can call with worse and you should be beating most of villain's hands.

Really, the whole thing looks overly aggressive and you got lucky on the river. You don't have enough information on villain yet to know if they are weak/stationary or what sort of range they have for calling flop raise. So your making a pretty blind bluff with a weak made hand and go lucky to catch a good one by the river.
Ya, I was torn on river. Mostly because I was shocked we got there. After this hand. I now have very precise read on this villain.

We can value bet river and get paid off by only worst of players. Maybe some Kx of heart hands from thinking player who picked up turn value. You can argue you would have to call AJ here vs me (and probably correct)

We can check and hope to induce bets from Jx, and missed draws.
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:59 PM   #10
Ragequit99
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

I'm slightly confused which V we're talking about here. Do both histories refer to same V?

I don't absolutely hate the flat with 64o when it's 7-way already. With the nit in BB you have nearly got best relative position going to the flop. Maybe you're losing a little on your line if you just nut-mine but it's not a horrific leak. I suspect this only becomes a big loser when you start taking big bluffing lines vs stationy players.

I'd probably just X/F the flop.
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Old 12-07-2018, 03:06 PM   #11
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by thin_slicing View Post
Gave up on that thread when you called pre. But just read it. Actually turned into good thread.

Time to give up on that river though.
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:01 PM   #12
mdelore
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Hand 1 is close but I'm not quite ready to fold against a spaz for that price.

Hand 2 is really bad and a punt.
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:07 PM   #13
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
Hand 1 is close but I'm not quite ready to fold against a spaz for that price.

Hand 2 is really bad and a punt.
Hand 1. I really just posted to show bet sizing he was using. Don't think it is really that close. I call anytime it is close IMO. I definitely have sticky tendancies.

Why is hand 2 a punt? What street dI'd I punt?
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:21 PM   #14
Minatorr
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikko View Post

Why is hand 2 a punt? What street dI'd I punt?
Pre

Flop

Turn

River

Mostly pre and flop though.

You can say it’s a small leak, but it isn’t. If you’re calling 64o because you’re severely tilted, you’re calling a lot of other -EV hands when you’re slightly or moderately tilted as well, and probably when you’re on your normal game too.
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:23 PM   #15
Minatorr
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

H1 raise way bigger pre or overlimp, $12 does nothing but bloat the pot with A high no kicker. $16-20 if you want HU or 3-way
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:41 PM   #16
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
H1 raise way bigger pre or overlimp, $12 does nothing but bloat the pot with A high no kicker. $16-20 if you want HU or 3-way
$16 has no chance in this game to go HU....every limper is calling up to $20 on average. Still raising $16 if it likely it goes 3-4 ways?

I Don't like results if I raise to $20. But that would generate some folds.

I am fairly content playing a suited Ace 3-5ways in position. Rarely not seeing at least first 4 cards and realizing our equity. Just prefer to raise smaller as it little easier to play post and saves me few BB.

This is 10 handed super loose game. HU pots are almost extinct. There was 1 chop in my 7 hour session
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:46 PM   #17
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by mikko View Post
Hand 1. I really just posted to show bet sizing he was using. Don't think it is really that close. I call anytime it is close IMO. I definitely have sticky tendancies.

Why is hand 2 a punt? What street dI'd I punt?
You folded to essentially a blocker bet when you had two pair. $60 to win $190 or something like that, and you had the four boat outs. I don't think he has a flush here over 80% of the time or whatever the math says it has to be for breakeven odds.

You punted mainly pre and on the flop by choosing to play the hand and then bluff with it in an 8 way pot. If you're going to punt then pick something like Jx or flush draw.
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:51 PM   #18
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
I'm slightly confused which V we're talking about here. Do both histories refer to same V?

I don't absolutely hate the flat with 64o when it's 7-way already. With the nit in BB you have nearly got best relative position going to the flop. Maybe you're losing a little on your line if you just nut-mine but it's not a horrific leak. I suspect this only becomes a big loser when you start taking big bluffing lines vs stationy players.

I'd probably just X/F the flop.
Ya same v in both hands.

Pre non of us know if we should be calling. Computers think it is a call though.

Post: sizing is so weak. I can't see him leading this into world of guys with OP or TP with this sizing. If he doesn't have those what is he leading?

So I bet pot, which I do frequently vs guys with bet sizing tells. Pot size bet I need to generate 50% folds. Which even vs most stick guys I think I accomplish this.

Still feel flop is profitable bluff. But not something to do often. (Which this spot may not come up again in 4 years)
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:53 PM   #19
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
You folded to essentially a blocker bet when you had two pair. $60 to win $190 or something like that, and you had the four boat outs. I don't think he has a flush here over 80% of the time or whatever the math says it has to be for breakeven odds.

You punted mainly pre and on the flop by choosing to play the hand and then bluff with it in an 8 way pot. If you're going to punt then pick something like Jx or flush draw.
Jx and flush draws are easiest calls in world. Why would I want to bluff with them.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:06 PM   #20
mdelore
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Why would you want to bluff at all in an 8 way pot at a 1/2 game with all regs? Weak Jx at least blocks top set and AJ, and has a prayer of being the best hand at showdown. How many streets can you c/c with J8 here?
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:15 PM   #21
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Why would you want to bluff at all in an 8 way pot at a 1/2 game with all regs? Weak Jx at least blocks top set and AJ, and has a prayer of being the best hand at showdown. How many streets can you c/c with J8 here?
At 1/5 on pot. I am not gonna have any issues with JX. Next topic.

Also this isn't multiway pot anymore. And nit blocked JJ and I block 66
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:31 PM   #22
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Flop I choose pot sizing feeling he was weak and no idea what to do. Range him on mostly smaller PP and AK and uncomfortable. And flush draws.

At this point it is obvious he prefers smaller bet sizes in general. And likely doesn't track pot size. So we can add a lot of JX to his range as well.

My bluff needs to work 50% to break even. Given I still have equity I can realize also. I am gonna hit 2 pair 10% of time and fairly confident that is crushing his range.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:36 PM   #23
ES2
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

Hand 1. If we are gonna PFR, we should try to steal. The pot sweetener thing... it can be OK, IF you are good at exploiting the fact that people ignore pot sizes. But you have position anyway, so something like leading 1/5 pot with a draw isn't really a play you'll be using a lot.

I also dislike raising hands, like bad aces, where my hand will be overepped on the flop when it hits. In other words, when you PFR and an ace hits, it sort of looks like you have a strong ace, but you actually have a crappy one. It's hard to value bet in that scenario. So now you have to either bet purely for protection, which isn't so good. Or you have to try to change your story to, "I don't have an ace after all, so try to bluff me, or call the turn or river with second pair."

So, again, with several limpers I'd much prefer to try taking it down pre, or just limping.

---

Hand 2. Bad call pre.

I don't really mind the bluff or combo bet or whatever OTF. I'd be pretty shocked if the PFR bet an overpair+ so small into a multiway pot with draws out there. Most people have gotten out of the way. You can rep a set. You have some equity. Hands like JT will often fold. If he did make such a weak bet with an overpair, he could very well fold it by the river.

Keep it up on the turn.

River is a weird spot. It looks for all the world like he has a draw, or perhaps is trapping. Assume you're shoving bricks?

I don't know how often worse calls. Like AsKs?

I might just throw out some ridiculously small blocker bet, hoping to get a sigh call from some random pair, or to induce once in a blue moon.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:45 PM   #24
mikko
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by Leobzook View Post
Well given his tiny flop bet he is probably on some sort of flush draw. Doesn't seem to be the type to bluff a missed draw so need to shove now and hope to get called by Ksxs

were you shoving river unimproved?
I was not shoving river. Plan on flop was to decide if I would triple barrel or stop on turn. But plan change 4 times in my head before river even came out. Which made shoving river even harder, since I was expecting him to fold anyway.

But while he tanked called turn. I had a lot of time to piece things together. (Love guys who act slowly when I need time to think)...

Decided I wasn't shoving river because I had showdown value vs part of his range he was likely to fold. Mostly flush draws.

And as Quad pointed out. I really didn't have best of reads on villain yet.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:53 PM   #25
ES2
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Re: Not GG approved....line check

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Originally Posted by mikko View Post
I was not shoving river. Plan on flop was to decide if I would triple barrel or stop on turn. But plan change 4 times in my head before river even came out. Which made shoving river even harder, since I was expecting him to fold anyway.

But while he tanked called turn. I had a lot of time to piece things together. (Love guys who act slowly when I need time to think)...

Decided I wasn't shoving river because I had showdown value vs part of his range he was likely to fold. Mostly flush draws.

And as Quad pointed out. I really didn't have best of reads on villain yet.
If you didn't shove, were you leaning to check calling?

I think you have to shove some rivers for sure. I guess this is a spot where knowing Vs opening range would come in handy. But there are probably going to be enough times where he hits a pair at some point.

If it was Jd6s2s I think you'd have to shove because he could easily have a jack with a fd.
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