Live NL 1/3 game at Graton Casino in SF Bay Area. I've been at the table for about 30 mins and everyone has been playing pretty straight forward, lots of limping and some pf raises sometimes.

$100 effective (my stack). Hero in the BB with AQo as I'm certain I'm ahead of everyone's range. Three limps to me and I make it 25 to go. All three players call.

Flop: K73 rainbow.

First player checks. With two people behind and less than a pot sized bet left, should I be shoving here? I found in my session yesterday, there were several instances where I would build a pot and then have an awkward spot like this where I don't know whether betting or checking is best with my stack size. Maybe I shouldn't be raising pf then? Some guidance would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Why are you playing a 33BB stack? That is where your awkwardness is coming from.

Generally, you want to raise enough that you can shove almost all flops when playing a SS strategy, but when you are 4-way that's more than thin. I'd at least want two overs for some equity to fall back on when called. With only one over, in the unlikely event that I found myself in this situation, I would likely c/f.

And limping along with premiums and a short stack is very bad, imo. You always want to be able to commit with TP+ and often less as a short-stacker. Limping a short stack is the worst kind of bingo poker, without the ability to extract a lot of value if you hit gin, and with SPRs too high for easy commitment when you hit a pair.

Fair points. Thank you!

I have basically no 33bb experience but I think I shove/fold preflop as my only only options and I’m not folding pre so I’m shoving. That being said, AP, I’m still shoving flop. You credibly rep a K, and aggro is the way to go, so stuff it in confidently.

Yeah I’m really not sure what to say here because your stack needs to be topped up. You’re too deep to play a shove or fold strat well over these limps but you’re still shallow.

I think I prefer shoving still over investing 1/4th of your stack. AP this board is dry and you’ll probably generate a lot of folds. And you’ll still have decent equity against anything worse than a king.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As a beginner, I'd lean towards check/folding any time you miss the flop with 3 other people in the pot in this situation. Someone will have enough to call you too often.

When you advance in skill, you can start taking into account if the table is playing fit/fold and whether your image to them is tight or not. If they believe you'd never bet unless you had TP or better, then you can get away with a bet.

Since the game is in CA, is the max buy in $100?

That's a SoCal disease. Bay Area buy-in's tend to be much bigger, and Graton is on tribal land. According to PokerAtlas, the $1/3 game max is $500 or up to the biggest stack on the table, whichever is bigger.

I bought in for 150 and my stack had dwindled. Next time, I'll top off

I tend to avoid anything between 20BBs (ideal for short stack strategy) and 66BBs (lowest stack for a regular strategy) like the plague. It just puts you in horrible spots like this way too often. I would definitely not buy in for $150, as it is even more awkward than $100, imo.

Either study and play a short-stack strategy, or a full-stack strategy, and make your buy-in match which one you're doing. As a newer player, I would avoid deep-stacks for now, as they are complex and mistakes can be very costly.

Personally, I find short stacking very tedious for live, as there is so much waiting, and unlike online, you can't just go to another table to rathole your winnings once you double-up. Instead, you find yourself in this awful medium stack position, and have to either quit for a while, play awkward stacks, or add on and play the full-stack game you could have been playing from the beginning. That said, if you have the patience for it, short-stack can be quite profitable.

Garick is 100% right.

Obv a big problem with a lot of SoCal rooms is the terrible structure. I heard at commerce, the max BI for 1/3 is $100. At that juncture, I think you’re better off just min buying and playing a pure short stack strategy.

Like here if you had $60, you could jam over these limps, generate around the same folds as a jam to $100 while risking less. And the times you do get called, you’re a little more likely to get action from hands like AJs or something that you have dominated (since a hand that dominates AQo isn’t folding for $60 or $100).

So yeah, if you can’t play with more, play with less.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Other player stack sizes still relevant. For example, if everyone else is 200bb deep, its a lot riskier for villains to call worse than kx without closing the action - making shove more attractive.

I lean towards check/fold even though shove may be better in theory - but think it is close and normally we know enough players to have a feel about which way is better.

pre is silly-big no matter what your stack. Might as well just rip now with ~.75pot left.

Topping off is higher EV if you’re a decent player but don’t worry too much about stacks. I definitely wouldn’t buyin shorter in these low stakes rake trap games just so you can play a “short stack” strat. I actually disagree with everybody that these middling stacks are awkward. They’re probably just not used to playing them.

AQ-high isn’t very showdownable 4 ways so I don’t mind turning this into a bluff. I might be slightly more inclined to check if we had a BDFD. Playing fit/fold 4-ways is also not horrible. You will make money just from people playing wide ranges pre and being forced into stack off decisions with weaker ranges when you connect. Shoving here is reasonable but likely very marginal if +EV at all.

I think pre sizing is fine. If people wanna call large raises with wide ranges a more standard raise isn’t fully punishing that. Also even if they choose not to call winning 4BB rake free OOP is quite a good result. We shouldn’t be overly worried about narrowing ranges when other ranges are mostly capped.

I generally agree with you on sizing, but IIRC this game is not no flop, no drop. Cali PF rake is actually pretty brutal, generally speaking, and I don't think Graton is an exception.

Pre flop shove on the surface seems overkill, but given 5 often gets raked immediately regardless of pot size post in CA, and my tourney instincts kick in at these stack levels and I shove. You pick up 3bb uncontested 90% of the time, and the worst that happens is you get looked up by say 99, and hardly in terrible shape.

If this is true, we probably shouldn’t even play 1/3.

Unless of course, your goal is entertainment. Then it’s fine. And it’s fine to optimize your game to maybe eek out a win or at least not lose as fast as everyone else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Didn’t know that. Yikes.

I am playing 3+2 right now. Suck it California!

Didn't grunch for some reason, but there's nothing inherently wrong with playing a short stack. If you're a ~beginner you're probably much better off doing so than a deeper one, imo.

I also more-or-less shortstack now (it's taken me many years to realize it is my wheelhouse) and had fine results with it, although admittedly I prefer a 66bb stack instead of a 33bb stack as there is both more playability and meanwhile it's still fairly simple to get into good spots / avoid stoopid ones.

Still, if you're playing a 33bb stack just play as well as you can, which means definitely raising here, so I'm fine with the big stack committing raise (easy peasy profitable commitment spot postflop if we hit TP). If it hadda gone HU I would have shoved the flop (some FE against small pairs, meanwhile give ourselves okish odds to hit our overs if they're clean). But 4ways I think I just check / give up.

GgoodluckG

The ONLY buy-in allowed at Commerce for 1/3 is an initial $100.

(When they are open.)

If you are felted you can rebuy $150.

Once you are below $50 you can add up to $100 more.

Or up to $150 depending.

YMMV some dealers will let you take $40, for example, up to $150 and some won't. And what they WILL let you take it up to varies with the dealer.

And, if escalated, it can vary with who is on the floor when "floor" is called.

Good times!

And rake is probably terrible. I can’t imagine why anyone would reg those games.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True that.

1+1 rake before the cards are out.

3+1 more on the flop, action or not.

1 more on the turn, action or not.

(assuming I recall correctly, it's been a long time since I have actually been there, 5-6 months I think...)

Somewhere there is someone who (1) remembers and (2) reads this forum and (3) will be kind enough to correct me.

Shove pre if pots are unraked pre- can guarantee this is the highest EV line for anyone playing with a 33BB stack. +3 BB uncontested with an unpaired hand. You’re not going to r/f after the 8x raise anyways.

AP shove flop, muck if you are called and don’t get there, and re-buy for the max with your newly established maniac image

imo

Not sure if this is right but I came up with:
30 combos call - KQ, KJ, 77, 33
20%!5% is 183 combos

So each player calls 10/61
Odds all fold - 58.44%
Odds 1+ calls - 42.56%
Equity when called - 11%

So total EV = .5844*100 + .4256*(250*.11 - 75)
= 58.44 -20.21 = 38.23
This doesn’t account for the scenario when 2 or 3 call.

Note: There’s a good chance I screwed up somewhere

That I believe is correct

The best part of playing a short stack correctly is that all the bad live players will just assume you’re a maniac and call way too light.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk