1/2 home game. Limpy passive.
V1 and V2 are aggro and over value hands. Both have 250bb
Hero playing very snug this session. Card dead and down 20bb after 5 hours play. Heo has 110bb

Hero Ah4h in sb

3 limpers, V1 limps otb, hero limp (??? please comment), V2 bet 5bb, V1 call, hero????

Flop: Kh 7h 6s

Hero????, V2 bet 15bb, V1 bet 60bb, hero?????

Not used to live games. can someone please comment on the decision points.

Fold.

V1 has an uncapped range and bet pot on the flop. V2 then raised that bet 4x. You are up against some combination of Kx and 77/66/76. Your Ace outs are likely dirty/worthless and you have zero FE if you shove. Your BDSD is not worth enough either.

Pre is marginal. I'm completing from the SB and calling the $10 as well, but you have to be able to get out of the way in spots like these to have any chance of pre being +EV.

Thanx for the reply.

What about pre? fold to the limp? Iso? limp and fold to the raise?or call call?

I think you have V1 and V2 mixed up a bit but I agree this is a fold as the PF raiser is repping KQ, KK, AK, AA and the other player is repping 2 pair or a set. Also, if you do call, there’s a chance V2 could shove AI.

Pretty much this.

Anything but the last one.

So you think limp/folding preflop is ok?

What happened was, I limped and then folded to the raise preflop. And if I continued, I could have won a big fat pot vs KJo and 76o with 2 more hearts coming on the turn and river.

Everything went in on the flop and I felt I may have leaned to a shove on the flop if I continued.

Call/call is fine (at this sizing) getting 3.5:1 on our money, relative position and closing the action. We just have to make sure to a) steal some pots postflop, and more importantly, b) know when to *NOT* try to steal pots postflop such as in this hand.

We need 32% equity if both players stack off when we jam the flop. Against the absolute bottom of their combined ranges (like in this hand), we have 34% for a +2% equity overlay. Versus KJ/98 (his only semi-bluff), we've got 36%.

When we start incorporating stronger and more likely ranges we are never +EV. Versus AK/77, we have 28%. Versus AK/98, we've got 30%.

So the best we can hope for here is an extremely negligible +EV spot vs. the absolute bottom of their combined ranges. And we still need both of them to stack off for us to profit. As soon as the PFR starts folding his junk like KJ then our required equity jumps to 44% and we have at most 34% vs. 76 and more often 26% versus his 77/66.

That doesn't mean we can't profitably call preflop - just that this isn't the hand to take a stand.

So I nailed it...

Don't be results oriented. Shoving the flop would have been extremely -EV.

Disagree. Call/call would be awful with the worst possible position and a hand that is likely dominated. Opportunities to steal will be very few indeed multiway OOP with 2 Vs who both over value hands.

l/c pre is probably a $2 mistake or so. those add up. AP x/f flop only option.

Fold, action behind you will blow you off your hand. If you do happen to get a flat behind and turn bricks, your going to have to fold.

Always raise preflop with your entire range if you have limpers in the pot when the action comes to you. They all have weak hands that's why they limped. There's no other reason to limp. Don't worry about you being in the SB and out-of-position after the flop. Disregard that for now and raise and make the weak hands to pay a premium to play their trash.

In this hand you have 5 players preflop in the pot. You raise like $10+$5 per each limper. That is $30-$35. If all call, that's no problem because you only have to win 1 time in 5 trials.

Range:
Don't load your head with nonsense ranges for EP, MP, LP ... etc..,
Have a universal range like would a professional mechanic have a tool box with all his important tools. That range you play for the 1st-one-in or against all limpers. You always raise (1st-one-in or against all the limpers) Cut the range in 2 and only play the upper section of your range and all pocket pairs 22+ against a raise. Re-raise to 3! with AA, KK, QQ, AK, A5s or ATs and T9s or 87s. Don't play AQ or 98s against a raise so to avoid being nutted by AK or K9. Also 4bet with AA, KK, AKs, and A5s or ATs

main range:22+, A2s+, all suited Broadways, AKo, AQo, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s and 65s
add the marginal: AJo, ATo KQo, and J9s, Q9s, K9s in the CO and BT spots.

Your most important work is done with your main range

Beware! This advice is full of assumptions. The most important of which is "They all have weak hands that's why they limped. There's no other reason to limp."

This is just not true. Lots of players limp strong hands for a variety of reasons. They are looking to limp/re-raise, they don't want to raise until they see if they hit the flop, or even some who think raising is rude. Really. "Isolate" these limpers with trash and bad position at your peril.

It can't be a $2 mistake when we already have a sunk-cost $1 SB invested. We are getting 10:1 at a limpy passive table with a bingo ticket that can make a nut flush and strong straight. We can also stack people that limp AK/AQ and get married to TPTK when we have two pair.

The only pitfalls we need to avoid are not playing huge pots with TPNK which should be obvious for anyone on 2p2 in 2017 and not getting involved in pots vs. strong ranges (like this pot).

This is the easiest no brainer complete in the world. >90% of the time BB is checking here, and even when he raises he makes sizing mistakes that let us continue (ie: this hand).

Raising this from the SB is utterly ******ed as is folding. it's nearly impossible we have less than 17% equity here (needing only 8%).

Johnny, he's talking about the call of the raise, not the completion of the SB.

Can't just throw out arbitrary numbers on how big a mistake something is without some math work (which people on 2p2 hate doing).

As is, we only need 22% equity to complete/call in this spot. Versus their actual hands, we have 36% compared to 32% for KJo and 32% for 76o.

Which goes back to my prior point about winning some pots postflop. Relative position is better than absolute in this spot as we will get perfect information on BTN's range before we have to decide what to do, and BB will be betting most flops meaning we can win more than our fair share with a x/r on 3 straight/3 flush boards after BTN folds.

As Garick said, I'm talking about the $8 call portion. You called it marginal and fine, Garick called it awful, and I was staking a claim somewhere in between.

I came up with $2 because I'd be ok-ish with calling if the raise had been to $8.

It's a rough stab and I'd argue that's all we can do here. There are a zillion assumptions to consider, including assessment of hero skills.

I think $8 is too much to call because I'm very dubious at the prospect of +EV steals OOP factoring prominently in this hand. So, we mostly have the usual problems of what's it gonna cost to see if we get there and are we gonna get paid enough when we do.

I l/f pre here. If you think l/c is better, that's fine, I mildly disagree, but I'm a bit of a positional nit in these spots.

Yah I agree it's marginal I just think the skill level (or lack thereof) of our opponents should tip the scales in our favor. We can't l/3bet cuz that is just silly, but knowing how weak their ranges are that just leaves l/c in my mind.

Let the math guide us. More often than not both villains are going to miss the flop, and even if they hit it that's no guarantee they can stand up to pressure (ie: BB x, BTN bets 1/2 PSB on Q63r and we x/r with BDFD + BDSD + overcard draw. Can BTN call here? Not profitably, and even if he does we can barrel plenty of turns whether we pick up equity or not.

Well, I'm not suggesting to isolate with trash. Do you see a single trash in my standard range? - Where and what trash you see?

You may be right sometime about some re-raising us but doesn't matter. If they limp with strong hands in front of us and we raise always as I said, they will re-raise and we can fold or pop them back with our stronger part of our range. Since we always raise with AA or 22 or A2s or 65s we could have as well very strong hands when we raise and they don't know what they getting involved with. We always make the same raise either with AA, 22, A2s or 65s, They have no idea what we have. We could have AA in the UTG or have 22 or 65 there. We could have 65s on the BT or AA, AK, T9s, A2s or KK. They never figure that out. Even if we have to fold the weaker part of our range in the very rare situations when some player limps with big hands we compensate for that with the vast majority of situations when people limp+calling with weak hands our raise. Since our universal range is stronger then theirs limping range we always have the edge. We don't try to win money preflop but instead setup the game post flop to extract money from weak hands that flop second best or miss. If we miss and they miss too or they flop weak doesn't matter because they will get rid of the trash when we c-bet. That's the way the mentality of weak player works. They limp+call to see if they hit and after that they fold because "it's not worth going on with weak holdings". They relate the value of their hand to the flop. We on the other hand relate out "imaginary value" to the fact that they limped with weak hands. That's a mark of a good player. A master of the game.

For example: our rage: 22+, A2s+, all suited Broadways from KQs down to JTs, AKo, AQo and T9s down to 65s. This range hits the most flops with the highest "equity-when-called" or miss.
The 22+ either hits Sets or miss
The AK, AQ make TPTK of miss
The A2s+ either hits a flush or a flush draw+one-over with "equity-when-called" or nothing.
The suited Broadways and the suited connectors from T9s down to 65s give us "hits" to straights, flushes, gutshots+flush, pair+flush draw all with "equity-when-called" on our c-bets.

On the other hand think what will happen in this game if all player decide to limp for 1bb including ourselves and all hands. We like everybody else will try to flop hands. Over the long run we all break even but be down $12/hour the rake. If ll players limp they will all lose to the rake. This is for sure. Even if everybody play only premium hands like AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ and always limp and try to see the flop first to see if they hit they all will be losers $12/hour the rake. Because all are doing it the same thing and they cannot get ahead of the others. If everyone limps then everyone loses and the casino wins. Think about this hard.

I could not find any other strategy better then to raise as the 1st one in or to always put a raise against any number of limpers. The more limpers the better because we raise even bigger in that case and even if they all call our raise with a full table of limpers, we only have to win 1 time out of 9 events.

Anyway, all have their own way to look at this game and work it out the way they know best.

Sorry, but I lost track for the length of my post.

Sorry, I forgot something funny and very educational,

Try to limp for a month playing every day 8 hours full time. Now,
Try to play another month by raising the way I describe it. Always raise 1st one in or raise always when you have limpers upfront regardless of position.

At the end of the experiment see the results. Hell, you don't even need a month to see the results. Always limp for the first 8 hours and the next day do what I said for 8 more hours. You will see a difference like day and night.

Try it

Actually, if I were to play the limp calling game like the rest of the table, I would expect to win more than them due to my skill edge

This is an oxymoron or paradox or something I'm not sure of. If you had a skill edge you wouldn't play the limp calling game.

If I were to play the limpy calling game, I would have the experience to know what to limp with, from where to limp from, and how to extract the value when i hit.

That's not to say playing limpy is the most optimal way to play, but to say if we all play limpy style we would all just lose to rake is just plain wrong if there are skill difference between the players.

There's no such skill as the "flopping skill" No so called "skilled player" know how to flop better then the "unskilled player". Skill or no skill both type of players flop the same in the long run. What and when you flop good can't be controlled.
Over the long run every body makes money when they hit and all money evens out.
Now, if you think you have a skill edge over the table why not play a bigger game. Anther words "why not raise" and play bigger pots when you decide to play a hand?

It's just simply very obvious that raising makes more money when raising or not playing a specific hands. Raising when you play or limping when you play the same hands makes much more money. If you limp with AA and and the entire tables limps too you may make some money but all the others will make the same amount of money when they get AA and all others including you limp.

In the end all win and lose the same amount while the casino takes out on average $120/hour per each table. That is on average $12.50/hour rake per player.

But the fact is, raising is the way to win. There are many players who have just hit upon it, without understanding the underlying math theory. And then, there are those of us who understand the theory. But the fact is, raising is the way to win. Those players who don’t raise a lot will not win. Even in the smaller easiest games. Raising, and that doesn’t mean that you play a lot of hands, that simply means that those hands you have chosen to play, you should frequently raise with.
Good Luck with limping