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NFD OOP vs short stacks NFD OOP vs short stacks

08-25-2014 , 10:41 AM
I wasn't hero in this hand but am curious how you guys would play it.

Hero: 50bm. (1100)Played quite loose when table opened but it's a pretty stationy table, he leaked down a couple hundred and then nitted down, playing pretty tight now.
V1: (300) 30wm. Betting, three betting and calling pretty loose, although he might be targeting the drunk deep-stacked fish to his right. He bought in for 500 and has leaked down to 300.
V2: (covers) 55m (which would be me). Deep, aggressive. Playing a wide range in late position, with very little success; folding to pressure a lot. Not a winning image in spite of my stack.
V3: (300) Wrinkly old white nit.

2/5 nl, early Saturday afternoon

Hero limps UTG with Ah6h
Drunk fish in MP calls
V1 in MP raises 20
V2 on BTN calls
V3 calls in SB
BB folds
Hero calls
Drunk fish folds

4 ways to flop, ~ $80

Flop: Kh9h4c

Hero?

- It's OK to berate hero about playing A6s here. I might have berated him too, although maybe not. I'm sure he has reasons for playing suited aces against this group of players, at this table. I was playing Axs too, and was happy to be on the button with it. Maybe ATs or A9s would be better but I still think there's an interesting question regarding flop play. Maybe not! All comments are appreciated.

- So if you were hero, how would you play this flop? Donk it out? Check/call? Is this a good place to check/raise? I'm particularly interested in how stack sizes factor into this, also position.
NFD OOP vs short stacks Quote
08-25-2014 , 10:47 AM
Obvious fold pre utg. As played, x/c.
NFD OOP vs short stacks Quote
08-25-2014 , 10:58 AM
We know that hero should've folded this and not limped then burned the cards when it was raised to 20.
AP, I don't want to donk then be raised by initial raiser. I would check/ call in this situation. I wouldn't check/raise because if we get called and it goes to turn and say a 2 comes up we are in quite a pickle while OOP with nothing but a draw against villains who are fairly short stacked who'll probably shove the chips into the middle.

So check/call >donk > check/raise
NFD OOP vs short stacks Quote
08-25-2014 , 12:27 PM
SB checks. Hero checks. V1 cbets 40. V2 and V3 fold. Back to hero.

I would seriously be thinking about check raising villain all in. Maybe I shouldn't!

That short stack kind of pulls me in a couple of different directions. Question is, do I have any fold equity? He's been playing a wide range and he loves to cbet.

On the other hand, this is not an auto-cbet. If I were villain I would not cbet here with air. But. He isn't me.

Realistically does hero have enough fold equity to make a move here?

Does he have enough io to call?
NFD OOP vs short stacks Quote
08-25-2014 , 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbqDave
SB checks. Hero checks. V1 cbets 40. V2 and V3 fold. Back to hero.

I would seriously be thinking about check raising villain all in. Maybe I shouldn't!

That short stack kind of pulls me in a couple of different directions. Question is, do I have any fold equity? He's been playing a wide range and he loves to cbet.

On the other hand, this is not an auto-cbet. If I were villain I would not cbet here with air. But. He isn't me.

Realistically does hero have enough fold equity to make a move here?

Does he have enough io to call?
Hero should call.

Even assuming that the ace isn't an out, Hero is 4:1 to hit the nut flush on the turn, and is being asked to call $40 to win $120, so is getting 3:1 direct odds. Only needs to win an additional $40 for this to be a profitable call, and think that's likely, especially against an aggressive villain.

Don't think Hero has a ton of fold equity. Villain raised pre and bet into 3 people, so while he could have air I think he shows up with a K in his hand a pretty good percentage of the time, especially since you don't have a K and presumably neither V2 nor V3 is folding a K here. Could also have a pocket pair. Generally think stacks are too shallow for V to bet/fold anything but air here, especially since Hero's line of x/r blasting the pot on this flop looks a lot like a flush draw. So, since Hero has the implied odds to draw with his nut draw (or to hit an A) and may not have much fold equity, I just call.
NFD OOP vs short stacks Quote
08-25-2014 , 02:27 PM
Against a splashy/fishy villain with a wider c-bet range than Kx, I probably just rip it in on the flop. We are probably close to 50% against his range. Doesn't take much fold equity to make this a profitable shove.

Calling is fine too.
NFD OOP vs short stacks Quote
08-25-2014 , 02:34 PM
OP, I think you're trying to have too many discussions with too little information.

You're basically trying to play a guessing game with very little information of players involved.

Hero (NFD) - we don't know why he's limping with A6s, and we don't know whether he's capable of evaluating FE. If he's not capable of evaluating FE, he's likely going to go with a set rule of thumb: never raise with draws or always raise with draws.

V1 (preflop raiser) - we don't know whether he understands board texture, and we don't know if he's a spew that will auto-fire cbet.

Plus cbetting in this spot doesn't have to be complete air, but it also doesn't mean that V1 will feel committed to the hand if anyone raises his cbet.

You're working with a wide range of possibilities given the number of variables and very little solid information to reduce the range. This kind of HH discussion will simply drift all over the place and it isn't as good of discussion as you think it may create.
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