I've been playing a lot of live low stakes lately. Mostly 2/2. I've noticed that open sizing is far too big which I know has been discussed here a lot. However, I'm wondering if it can even be profitable to play 1/2 when you have to put in 10bb pre just to thin the field a bit. And then you cant really try to hit any sort of draw because, either you're facing a short stack who can't really pay me off. Or someone donks out and overbets the pot with some rag ace or random two pair (Q4o, etc).

The open size already shrinks effective stack sizes. And then the room allows min buyins of $40, which means not only is it hard to get paid off but you also won't have much fold equity for a semi-bluff.

I know these are common issues for live games, but I'm not sure if it's common to have all these issues in one game. If so, what is the best way to approach a game like?

Should I avoid it? Should I short stack and just play premiums, basically using a 20bb tourney strategy?

I've played 2/5 a little and it seems like there's a lot less of this sorta thing but it's still there. When I play 2/2 I feel like I'm just waiting to hit my hand, like BINGO. In 2/5 it seems like there's more ro

I just feel like if I buy in for $200 and other players buyin for $40 or maybe $100, it's hard to turn a profit. Which sucks because these players are terrible.

Any advice, or resources to share on this topic would be very appreciated.

Thanks!

whether or not the game is “Worth playing” is hard to answer for anyone else.

depends on what the rake is and what your hourly is at your day job.

I would play tighter pre and wouldn’t be afraid to gambool more than I’m used to once I flop well because of the low SPRs.

Things that are not an impediment towards turning a profit at poker:

- Thinning the field requires a 10bb raise
- Draws have reduced fold equity
- Needing a hand to continue

If everyone is a short stack, yeah that will limit your upside.

Mostly it comes down to your ability to crush the opposition which is pretty easy based on the description you give.

That said, whether or not it's worth it, is an entirely personal question.

Your thinking is backwards. These huge opens are a good thing for you. You should always be entering pots with +EV ranges, so bigger pots just magnifies your EV. If other players want to play big pots with wide ranges, that's amazing.

Remove "thin the field" from your poker vocabulary.

I was thinking of writing something like this, well put.

OP, this is the kind of games you want to sit in. The small buyin structure kind of suck, but as the game progresses the stacks will grow naturally as people busts buyins and reloads more money on the table.

Its all about adjusting to the game. If people are playing shorter stacks and the opens are big,you need to play stronger +EV ranges as Browni pointed out. When stacks get deeper and you get a better feel for the game that night you can open up your hand selection more.

I agree with above. Don't fall into the trap of "I want to move up where people respect my raises." If you can't beat this game, you can't beat the 2/5 game either.

This is a question of the rake, not the game style. If the rake is reasonable, this game is a gold mine. It's admittedly boring, as the name of the game is make a hand, get paid, with no room for fancy play, but it's super profitable.

Stop trying to win the most hands. Try to win the most money. When you are not just up against a short-stacker and wiff the flop, just let it go. For example, stop thinking you "deserve" to win because you opened AQs and someone called with K4o. If the flop comes 248r 4-ways, don't c-bet and fold if someone bets. If it comes Q48r, value bet them to death and watch them still call with Q7, or even the aforementioned K4.

Short stack strategy is the right idea but read up on a cash game short stack strategy. A tournament strategy will be too aggressive post flop. Stack sizes limit your profits but rake is what will determine if it's +EV or not.

And yes, playing a short stack strategy in this sort of game can be boring. It will be a lot of waiting for value. Close to zero draws and almost no bluffs beyond c-bets.

“ it's hard to turn a profit. Which sucks because these players are terrible. “ WTF? Always LOL when OP can’t beat game or players he describes as terrible.

Maybe this helps, it’s V description of H - H is a loose passive Fish who plays fit or fold post flop. H calls pre too wide and folds post too much.

This post reeks of “these players are so terrible that nobody can beat them!!!!” The entitlement coming through is something you’ll want to address. The game you describe is a super profitable situation. This shouldn’t be a question. The problem seems to be you want to play loose passive and you want the V’s to play tight passive. Well V’s play how they want, not how you want. Player a tighter range than V’s and shovel chips into the pot, print money. Easy game.

10bb pre w/ Q4o.

Please, oh please, invite me into this game

I should've clarified. I'm profitable in the 2/2 game. And the 2/5 game. But I wonder if I would be better off at 2/5, or adopting a new strategy for 2/2. It seems like a $7 drop, 2/2 table full of short stacks is creating a lot of variance.

I can make a buyin there in a few hours usually. And other nights I will lose. By end of week I'm only up 2-3 buyins. Which is nice but surely there's more to be made. So I know there's more I can do. Just not sure what that might be.

What I don't know is will longer sessions improve profit or make it worse. And I'm asking about the structure/style specifically: short stacks, $7 drop, smaller effective stack size, etc. But I'm also open to strategy or mindset critique.

I don't think it's fair to say that I'm acting like the players are "so bad no one can beat them". That's really not what I'm saying. I've played this game long enough to know that's a loser's mindset.

Most of the players are very beatable. They play their hands face up with almost no regard to the tells they give off.

But giving up a large percentage (1/20th) of my stack everytime I want to play a hand seems counterintuitive to me. And when you're in a multiway pot with TPTK you really don't want to bloat the pot past the flop. Right?

Well, one hand like that and a lot of your stack is gone, only to have to fold turn or river. I just feel like there's something I could do to optimize my play in this type of hand.

@browni3141 You say remove "thin the field" from my vocab. This has my interest. I just kinda assumed I should be trying to iso players and not go multiway to a flop. Don't I stand a better chance taking it down vs 1 or 2 players instead 4 to 7? Isn't my equity, even with premiums, decreased as more and more players enter the pot?

I feel like I'm missing something there. Maybe you can elaborate.

You guys have given me a lot to think about. I'm going back to reread all these comments again and see what I can use for tonight's session.

Jax, Fl. Dude called my allin shove pre with it. I had AA.

That pre-flop sizing just means that you shouldn't be playing speculative hands like SCs in this game (unless you can overlimp them). Yes, these games are high variance. However we definitely want to bloat the pot with TPTK against LP stations in pots that were raised big pre. Sometimes they will have a weird 2p and take a stack, but the amount of times they will call down with TPGK- will more than make up for it.

Make a hand, get payed. It's not rocket surgery.

That exact uncomfortable feeling with TPTK is why some advocate a limp-reraise. If the open is for 5% of your stack, the SPR will be about 10 postflop, which (as you’ve pointed out) is large enough that you’re immediately putting in a significant portion of your stack, but not so much that you want to be committed. By limp-reraising, you guarantee you’ll either put in a smaller fraction of your stack (if it limps around), allowing you more postflop playability, or a huge fraction of your stack (if you get to reraise), allowing you to easily commit with your TPTK or overpair.

Now you can obviously disagree that this is better than open raising. But it does solve the specific problem you’re talking about.

It won't though, because the other players are short-stacked. OP should be opening an unbalanced strong range and stacking off with TPGK+ all day in this game.

Well, sure. When he says 5% of his stack I assume that’s the effective stack size. Change “5% of your stack” to “5% of the effective stack” if you like.

It will and $7 rake with a table of short stacks is brutal. If they are bad it will still be profitable. There will be nights though where you raise with AK, get multiple callers and whiff flop and just have to give up hand after hand. Those same games will be super profitable when you are running well because if your raising $20 preflop and still getting callers you only need to win a couple of hands to win a buy in.

Eventually you get tired and your EV per hour will go down. If it reaches 0 EV or worse then it's time to leave. There are also likely differences in the playing pool over time that you should be aware of.

It's great to see so many different takes on my question(s). I'll just keep adjusting, hopefully optimizing, and see where it leads me. For now, I'll stick to the basics and try to learn the field a little better. The money is definitely there. Just gotta get more of it!

Thanks for all the help!

I can tell you with confidence that 1/2 & 2/2 live are immense wastes of time unless you are playing in games with absolute ******s or on weekends against splashy V's having a good time. Not only is the rake virtually insurmountable (referring to casino live), in 2020, everyone and their mother knows the game well enough to play pretty nitty and logical. Nit reg infestation against people who don't want to lose money/tight on money, not great.

Get to 2/5 as fast as possible and never look back, the pots/action make up for the rake and you will encounter a lot more people with money willing to make big risks with it and have fun. Of course, you will encounter much better players, so stay out of their pots to begin with.

Where do you play, valiantcalls? I have not seen a 1/2 or a 2/2 game that wasn't beatable for tons except the SoCal tiny max buy rake traps. Definitely not seeing nit-infested games at any time other than weekday OMCs.

I mean yes, they're not as horrible as 2008 in most places, but they are still addicted to seeing flops at this level, and overpay like crazy for the privilege.

Before the lockdown, was playing Mohegun Sun in Wilkes Barre, PA mostly since it was close. There are definitely much better casinos in NEPA.

Yeah, I've heard that Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods are pretty nitty, even at the lowest levels. That is not tru of most of America.

“Thinning the field” is a thing, you guys.

This being said, it’s an ancillary benefit to our overall strategy. Like if we can sit there and wait for a premium hand, raise to 10% of our stack and get action, then that’s freaking great. We can get our entire stack in by the river against wide ranges.

Just remove “bluffing” from your strategy and you’ll do well in games like this.


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OP, I think I saw a very similar post on the CLP forums last week. If it wasn't you, disregard my advice. But if it was you, work through the fast track curriculum and be aware it may take a couple times for it to stick. Also you will find a ton of advice for low limit live games with restrictive buy-in caps, mainly in the "crushing no limit holdem poker" curriculum.

One thing I've learned as I work through the material, be careful about studying, or at least putting into practice, things you learn that dont really apply to the games your playing.

So, quick update. I just got back from the poker room. Played 3-1/2 hours. Some at 2/2 and some 2/5. Overall it went well.

Basically at 2/2 I nitted up and shortstacked the game. I bought in for $100, instead of my normal $200. Got stacked once with AQ in a pretty typical spot. Then rebought and managed to pickup some premiums.

I used a $15 to $20 open each time and usually got 3 to 4 callers. I still find myself not wanting to use such a big size but if I'm only playing top 10% I guess it makes sense.

So I made a little there at 2/2 then decided to move to 2/5 for a while and did really well there (got lucky).

I feel like shortstacking 2/2 playing top 10ish% is probably the way to go. No suited connectors, no offsuits, etc.

And I think I'll play a similar strategy in 2/5, only I'll buyin full and play it a bit wider, as there are usually other 100bb stacks there as well. But I've got a lot more studying to do before I really feel confident in that game.

I'll likely stick to 2/2 on days where I haven't got much sleep, short on time, or need a confidence/$$ boost. And I'll play 2/5 for my longer sessions, days off, well rested, etc.

One of things said here really made me think. One of you brought up entitlement and at first I kinda scoffed at it. But the more I think about it, the more I realize you might be right.

One of the hands I found myself in yesterday at 2/2 was with a set of 9s. I shoved over a raise when I knew better. There was a weird straight on the board and no way he's raising me, and the other players without it. But instead of assessing the situation, I got a little entitled, then titled and spazzed out when I could've easily called and reassessed on the next street.

Anyway, thanks again! Today's profits are definitely thanks to the help I got here. I'll post some of the hands for review after tomorrow's session.