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Old 06-28-2014, 06:53 PM   #1
CallMeVernon
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My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

I have been on the forum for 4 years, reached 2,000 posts, and already done a well (which is why this isn't a well), but I still feel like many times the best I can contribute to the forum is to pass on what I remember from other, better posters.

So that's what this is: it's a roundup of a bunch of stuff that I read before and that "flipped the switch" for me in terms of helping my game. If I remember any more later maybe I will tack them on below.

Also: with one exception, none of this is linked in the Best Of thread.

1) My favorite post from the archives:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...0&fpart=1&vc=1

Every time someone talks about suited connectors and implied odds it makes me want to go back and read this again.

2) Everyone has probably read or at least heard of limon's 2000th post, which is fantastic and contains the "nine-ball" quote that introduces the Best Of. But there are other quotes in there that I liked even more than that. Here are some:

Quote:
A lot of people ask…whos the best player in the world? Well…I think im the best player in the world. Why? Because ive achieved all my goals. I went through college with poker, Ive bought an engagement/wedding ring w/ poker, ive paid for 2 houses with poker. Ive bought and/or invested in multiple businesses with poker. I live a life at my speed w/ poker. … YOU MIGHT BE THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD! That’s the beauty of poker…just figure out what you wan t and achieve it….no one can take that away from you! (hopefully these weren’t the lyrics to a Whitney Huston song)
(My goals are a lot more modest than limon's, but I have achieved mine.)

Quote:
Im always amazed at how poor the bet sizing is in the games I frequent. Even among “good” players. The next time you go to make a robo/standard pot size bluff …STOP! and ask yourself, “could I bet $10 less and get the job done? $20 less?” Really think about which chip is the breaking point and bet size to that chip. Same goes for that PS value bet, would PS +$10 be a deal breaker? If not then why are you wasting $10 on all your value bets? In fact I think players bet size much worse when they are running hot than they do when they are running cold. Many times I have said to myself when I see a player rushing, buried in chips, “wow he is losing a lot of money, why’d he leave that guy with his last $100 on the end?”. I would say I make at least one small bet per hour doing this, that’s 20k a year, little things count.
Quote:
Most young on line winners are like young fighters who have never gone past 6 rounds. Its just that the on line guy has never gone past 6 bets. By the time he gets to the turn raise he thinks the hand is over but his opponent knows it just started.
(Experience has taught me that this is very true.)

Quote:
I am NOT a fan of playing deep unless you are covering a player who you can felt w/o coldecking him. I see sooooo many young guys putting their balls on the table for no reason. The only way the money will get in the middle is if one coldecks the other and that is just a crapshoot, there is no overlay. ( I, on the other hand, get a huge overlay having a med/small stack in between them)
Quote:
Heres what I do:
1. I look around the room and figure out which table I want to be at
2. I sit down and buy in for the amount of the the loosest player at the table
3. If I don’t know anybody I buy in for 70 BB’s
4. I watch very closely and try to come up w/ an individual plan for how im going to break every player at the table. The plan includes a lot of factors but im really keen on whether the player is a “fit or fold” type, what the players weakest holding they’ll go broke with are, what the player is capable of in regards to running bluffs and how many bets the player needs to see before he considers a bet “significant”
5. Now I might add more money…a lot more money.
3) It's a shame we don't really hear from stampler anymore, because he used to be my favorite poster. He was big on the mental side of the game (as opposed to technical/mathematical). Here's one of his contributions to one of the threads in the Best Of, where people were talking about what the difference is between a good player and a decent player, and he dropped in with this analogy (which I enjoyed even though I'm not a surfer):

Quote:
There used to be no competitive surfing (as in, waves).
no professional surfing.
ppl did it for the obvious reasons.
the ultimate form of leisure.
the sport of kings, right?

then someone wanted to figure out a way to pay for thier bananas,
besides shaping, and repairing boards,
and surfing competitions were born.

in the beginning, they had a weird format for judging.
you scored points for every move, every trick.
floater, 5 points; sick bottom turn, 3 points,
you get the idea.

what happened to the way ppl surfed??

well, obv, the pros started becoming huge spazzes in thier style of surfing.
the more moves, the more points.
so naturally, soul surfing went out the window,
and it became a race to be the busiest surfer.

but what happened to the non-pros style of surfing?
they copied it, for no real reason, but because they thought thats what 'advanced' surfing was, and thats what they strove for.
surfing attracts those who love a challenge. it was'nt making them any $, obv.

sure, the pros were technically better, but only a handful were able to make the spazz style look good.
later, judging criteria changed in contests, as they recognized the almost destructive influence of the point system.
still, the impact that this weird glitch in history has had lingers at breaks everywhere.
the guy who is hands down the 'best is santa cruz's' style is so ugly, it hurts me to watch. technically impressive, though.

what does this have to do w/ poker??

to me, it's about 'what is good surfing??' really>
what is 'good poker??' really??
maybe it's not what we think it is.
it's a very deceptive(mysterious) game, so maybe we have'nt figured anything out yet?
it's certainly a possibility?

now, when you look back to that period of time in Hawaii, when pro surfing took off, and you notice who is regarded now as being the best back then, it's not just the few top pros, but the soul surfers, who refused to alter their style, and did'nt get the big attention at the time.
4) I went back to look for quotes from Princess Azula, another one of my all-time favorite posters. I found so many good ones that the list below is taken just from stuff that didn't make it to the Best Of thread.

From "Concept of the Drunk Night: Mental Strength":

Quote:
I think that very smart people who have studied the game extensively - who understand how to play soundly - sometimes play worse than the old-nit-true-grinders (those who have not deeply studied the game) b/c the old-nit-true-grinders have a superior mental strength, though they might not have a superior mental understanding of the mathematics of the game.

The old-nit-true-grinders (ONTG) "have been there done that". They can smell themselves tilting a mile a way - and they don't. They see FPS for what it is. They silently laugh at all of the FPS and are just as happy to see a FPS sucker sit at the table as they are to see a rich noob businessman.
Quote:
Image a player you admire sweating every play you make.
Do not make mistakes that you know are mistakes.

If you always conclude that you are the best player at the table then you might be (probably are) suffering from an over-confident bias.
If you always describe your villains as fish then you might be (probably are) suffering from an over-confident bias.

If you are mad b/c you lost even though you played the hand well, then you are dumb-ass.
PA once dropped in on a thread where there was a big debate about whether to bluff in a 1/2 game, and in a couple of posts:

Quote:
My point is just that to beat $1/2 live, you really just need to always have value hands.

Play $1/2 live for 1,000 hours with a strong range, never bluffing, never hero-calling, and you will have enough money to move up to $2/5. Period.

I don't play $1/2, but when I did, I would sit there all day and watch the old-reg-nits clean up. And they still do. I still see them playing $1/2, and making more money at those tables than many at $2/5. They just don't want to play $2/5. They are nits with no gamble. But that is fine for live $1/2.

At $1/2 live, old-reg-nits take the money f do.



I don't play $1/2 anymore b/c I moved up a while ago. At the casino I play at, the $1/2 players who are winning the most and who have been winning the longest, are the old-men-nit-grinders.

I respect them.

I think the poker community is currently nuts and wrong. Nit has become such a bad word. I understand why though. A lot of live poker is image. And a lot of image is talk. There are many players who talk about themselves like they are so loose/bluffy and aggressive. But as I watch them play, I see that they are tight, tight, super tight - very nitty always showing up with the nuts.

I get it. They are talking themselves up as gamblers. But they not.

Ivey said poker is about being tight, but having everyone think you are not.

So, anyway the poker world is so wrong about the best way to play. Everyone thinks nits suck. But nits are winning in the games.

Last week I was playing in a game where this rich young rec player was berating this nit for playing so few hands. I didn't get involved in the argument, but I wanted to say:

"Look dumbass, that guy has been coming year for years. And by the way, he isn't rich. So how can he afford to dumb $500 to you and keep reloading? The answer: he is buying in with his previous winnings. He's actually winning in the game. Unlike you. You come here once every two weeks on Friday, and spew off $1500 before leaving. You are clueless. But thanks for the $$ and thanks for sucking."

So the point is this. Here is this young guy who only has money b/c his rich mom gives him money. He thinks the best poker player is the one who plays the most hands. He plays 70/30/5 poker. Can't win with those stats. He is a huge loser in the game. But he just doesn't get it. It's not about being cool and playing every hand. It's only about winning money. That's it.

So trust me. Everyone thinks the best players aren't nits. Guess what. Outside of the famous nosebleeders and sickos, most winners play tighter than 2+2 thinks.
A long time ago, dgiharris posted a hand where he bluff-raised the river; here's the action: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...77&postcount=1

PA's analysis of that spot is an amazing way to see how difficult it is to do any kind of objective game-theoretic analysis of poker. I'm just going to link to it instead of quoting it, because really, it's the whole thing: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...9&postcount=91

Anyway, that's just a few of my favorites from my time on the forum. Probably the next time I have a downswing I will just find this post and read it in an attempt to center myself.
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Old 06-28-2014, 07:25 PM   #2
venice10
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2



I'm continually saddened but grateful that players and posters ignore any advice that was is over a year old. Thank you for the memories.
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Old 06-28-2014, 08:29 PM   #3
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

great post Vernon
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Old 06-28-2014, 09:28 PM   #4
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

Like it a lot.
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Old 06-29-2014, 12:13 AM   #5
Panama Ed
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

Damn now SC's feel like a scratch off lotto game
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:22 PM   #6
Illiterate
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

This topic is awesome.

Quick math question - How does PA come up with the 18.4% bluff frequency in dgi's 88 thread? I've been toying around with the numbers and can't replicate that answer.
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:52 PM   #7
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

TBH, I'm not sure. PA claimed to have a PhD in math and I have no reason to doubt it. PA was one of those posters I didn't always agree with, but respected enough that I had to confirm through some work as to why. Many times I was wrong.

I met stampler in Las Vegas. Liked the guy IRL, wish he'd post again. Mpethy disliked some of his advice and I think that's what drove him off. His advice of being the "Man with No Name" ties in with David Sklansky's advice of being the guy at the end of the night who is cashing in his winnings while everyone is going, "I don't remember him involved with any hands, how did he win?"
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:52 PM   #8
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illiterate View Post
This topic is awesome.

Quick math question - How does PA come up with the 18.4% bluff frequency in dgi's 88 thread? I've been toying around with the numbers and can't replicate that answer.
Fairly sure that the pot has $950 + $450 + ~$1,100, for ~$2,500, and V has to call something like $650 more. This means that he's getting ~4:1 on a call. So, if DGI is bluffing here less than 20% of the time, i.e. villain will only be right 'hero' calling here with whatever he had 1 in 5 times then villain can't call profitably.

My math in the pot might be slightly off, but I think that's the general break down.
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:24 PM   #9
Illiterate
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

That's the formula I used, and it worked out to villain having to be good ~20.5% of the time to break even on a call. Can't figure out where the deviation is coming from.
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:47 PM   #10
CallMeVernon
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

You'd have to ask PA yourself, but I'm guessing it's a minor computational error, because I got roughly the same thing (dgi was actually off when he computed the pot size, and using the correct size, I got something like 21.2%).

I don't really think it takes much away from the post, though.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:35 PM   #11
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

Enjoyed this.
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Old 06-30-2014, 12:06 AM   #12
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

Very good post from a solid board contributor. It did make me sad to read some names I never see anymore.
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:34 AM   #13
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

The truth is 99% of us won't be posting here in five years. I can't imagine how much amazing material is just sitting in the archives somewhere that I've just never bothered to uncover. So while we're all here ill just say thank you people for being here now. 2+2 is my most frequented site by far and has easily been my most profitable and its all thanks to you guys.
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Old 06-30-2014, 11:35 AM   #14
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

Nice post Vernon. I should really go back into the archives more than I do.

I enjoyed the stampler surfing analogy, although I know absolutely nothing about surfing. Really wish I hadda taken up surfing and/or skateboarding at one point. Probably too late now, methinks.

Also totally related to PA's nits-crush post, nice.

Ggoodluckatthetables!G
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:27 PM   #15
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

To reiterate what spike said, thank you to Vernon and all of the great posters that make this site a valuable resource. I'm playing more live these days, and I can really tell that posting and reading is helping my game.
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Old 07-01-2014, 03:33 PM   #16
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

Nice post Vernon,

it's funny to look back on a past hand and thought process and see/compare it to my current understanding of the game...
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Old 07-01-2014, 03:49 PM   #17
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

As a 20-something nit, I love that nit-true-grinder post.
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:07 AM   #18
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Re: My 2000th Post: Just Some Of My Favorite Stuff From 2+2

+1
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