You're running bad with the tables you're getting. Some 2/5 tables are tougher than others but I've never been at one this tough. At your typical 2/5 table, there's always at least some open limping (at many tables it's standard) and your typical players stats are something like 30/8/1. I don't think I've ever been at a table with more than 3 players I'd stake at 100NL. Even your lagtard was only playing 30% of his hands, I've seen many lagtards in the 50-70% range. In short, don't get discouraged. I'm sure it being Tuesday had something to do with it. Wait for the weekends and see what happens.

This is an important point. My 3 betting range last night looked NOTHING like my 3 betting range when I play .5/1 or 1/2 online.

It was very clear last night that the correct 3 betting range to have was a light value range, not a polarized range. 3 bet success rates were very low; online, they seem to average around 46%. At the table I was at last night, I'm pretty sure 3 bets generated a fold in the neighborhood of 25% of the time.

This was an important adjustment that I made last night; it is, in fact, the one that got me unstuck for the night after I acted like an idiot calling that 1st 3 bet OOP.

The table lagtard made a standard button steal of 3bb, and I 3 bet him out of the BB with ATo. I was confident this was a value raise; online, I would usually have ATo in either my calling range or my semi-bluffing range. It would almost never show up as a light value bet; there just aren't as many 30 VPIP guys around who also have low fold to 3 bets. But the table lagtard had an observed 0% fold to 3 bet, so it was actually an easy 3 bet for value.

Good post, sir.

With the AT hand, obv it depends on how the table is playing, but yeah this seems like a situation vs a bad opponent where I'm expecting him to be raising lots of worse aces(live players love Ax), Kx, suited connectors and all sorts of stuff and calling pretty much any 3bet I make. Online 3betting AT folds worse and gets called by better more often than not.

Probably the only time I've played at such a table is at the Rio during the WSOP. The games there are terrible and I learned my lesson as the games away from the Rio were better.

One thing I think you should keep in mind, and I'm sure you are, is that a lot of these tighter players end up being TAGfish, taking these super common bad lines that turn their hands face up to any serious opponent. Usually younger players(really old guys are just rocks waiting on QQ+). They hear how soft live games are and hop in expecting to print money. You usually have more FE vs them. I'm not necessarily advocating FPS but many of them make it very obvious they have AK or an underpair or whatever. It's important though to be careful and not make a move in the wrong spot and get owned.

While obviously you'd rather play against loose-passives there are some things you can do in certain situations to try and exploit tighter players while waiting for a table change.

Also you mentioned live players overvaluing TP. I def agree. It's funny in L.A. the starting stacks are like 33bb or 40bb in the lower games. When I play here it's pretty much flop TPGK and shove(i.e. KJ and get looked up by J7 on a Jxx flop). But eventually stacks get deeper and lots of players don't adjust and start stacking off TP in some terrible spots for 100bb+. But in Vegas you start off with good size stacks and they still overvalue it. This is probably televised tournaments affecting their play I guess, but I don't mind.

IMO, that is a HUGE part of it. I have noticed this among the guys who play the nightly luckaments. They decide to sit at the cash game after they get busted, and they are playing it like a tournament - hit a top pair and ship it.

I really like the point about live tables varying considerably from one to another.

This really is so true and it is often underestimated in this forum. I play in London now and it is generally a lot more conservative than most 2+2 low stakes live posts I read about (a post-flop raise means 2 pair plus). But even in London there is huge diversity depensing on which casino and who sits down at your table.

One thing I will say... even with the tough tables.... even if everyone starts playing good, apart from the occasional rock... most people tire and spaz out eventually.

Enjoying the thread. Keep it up!

KurtSF is flying in to meet me tonight. w00t!

The chances are very good that whatever poker occurs tonight will not be of the completely serious kind. There may be a joint TR coming, but I suspect it will be more of a fun one than the dry analysis thus far ITT.

The chances are also very good that it will not be a post session TR, but a post hang-over TR.

See you guys later; glad the thread is going well so far.

why would you want to kiss a hooker?... thats like kissing a mouth that blows a different guy every day, ewww

wow, you run bad at table draws (I know how that goes. stupid main event grrr). It could be the time of year, but last time I played 2/5 at the venetian, i never ran across a table like you described. they were all different, mind you. some were rock gardens, a couple filled with crazy europeans who LOVED to 3-bet light...especially against the blonde girl (hehe...me), and many many drunk tourists. All exploitable.

Stick with it, and go back on friday or saturday night...hehe

i always thought live stealing ranges were narrower though. live players don't perceive stealing opportunities as much, and i think often a raise from CO or BTN when it's folded to them simply indicates a standard raise rather than a steal attempt (note this applies for the average player at 1/2.. more aware players obviously have a distinct stealing range). consequently my 3bet vs. steal is lower live than it would be online, especially with the low fold to 3bet numbers live

it could be i only have this impression because it so rarely folds around to CO/BTN at 1/2 live...

It definitely doesn't fold around as often as online.

Live stealing ranges are smaller too. And so should your 3bet range because they're not folding and usually have solid cards, normal players anyway.

But in the hand he posted it's vs. a lagtard(or table lag or whatever) who's opening a much wider range(and not a typical live villain). Obv I wasn't at the table but I imagine someone that's raising a whole lot from all positions with all sorts of holdings. That's why I believe he 3bet AT in that situation.

He was somewhat positionally aware; he didn't get too out of line in EP, although I did see him show down low suited connectors from EP at least twice. If I had to estimate, I'd say he was playing a top 15% range with some random stuff thrown in from EP, and was on a 40%-50% stealing range. His ATS at the time we played the hand was quite possibly 100%, but, as you guys noted, stealing opportunities were very rare, so he was at or near 100% in a sample of maybe only 3 to 5 steals.



More importantly, saying his fold to 3 bet of 0% was a literally true statement.

Hey, I'm gonna be in Vegas from the 30th to the 3rd or something like that. I'll be playing $1/2 at the Venetian among other places, if I see you I'll say hi.

Hey mpethy, are you gonna put up that post-hangover TR you mentioned.....or maybe you haven't even reached the hang over stage yet.

*Split*, KurtSF and mpethybridge from left to right.

We met up at Hooters and had wings, shrimp, burgers and (ahem) a salad.

From there we went to the MGM to donk around at 1/2 NL. *Split* and I were seated together at first, and KurtSF joined us later when a seat freed up.

We had a blast being kind of silly, but we all actually played solid poker (except for the blind calling and straddling). KurtSF ran horribly--he lost a stack AIPF with AA v. KK, he lost another one with AA to *Split*'s flopped full house and he had some other stuff go wrong that I don't recall.

I ran basically as card dead as I have been since I got to Vegas, and finished up just a few big blinds.

*Split* finished up Kurt's stack plus another decent chunk; he was definitely the big winner of the three of us tonight.

The first night *Split* and I played together at the V, he busted on me about having a too-serious demeanor at the table. Tonight I went to the other extreme and played the table drunk. I was almost stone cold sober (less than three beers), but acting silly and talking about being drunk and doing things like randomizing my preflop raise size by asking the dealer to pick a number.

I'm normally not a funny guy, but I cracked up my end of the table with a pretty good quip.

We had let the cat out of the bag that we played on the internet pretty early in the session. Later, *Split*, who had the God seat on me, was just making conversation. He says to me, "you never did the internet dating thing, did you?" And I said "no I never did," and then we go off talking about internet dating. He finally says to me, yeah, you're lucky you never had to do internet dating." I replied, "nope; I do internet poker; it's my wife who does the internet dating."

And a good time was had by all.

Not that it will surprise anybody, but my fellow mods are very cool guys who are a real pleasure to hang out with.

Kurt and I are going to grind the venetian tomorrow, and it sounds like our sessions will overlap. So that's cool.

*Split* also took this picture of my back and Kurt:



_______________________

Tonight:

Kurt and I met up tonight at dinner time at the Venetian. We ate dinner at the Grande Lux and then Kurt resumed, and I began, grinding. I decided to join him at 1/2, primarily just to have fun, but also because I didn't really feel like I had my A game today after last night's revelries and only about 3 hours' sleep.

Again with the tough tables. Kurt says that he suspects three of the 10 people at our table who were there as a group of being 5/10 players who were slumming. I don't know about that, but they weren't the usual 1/2 players, either.

There were a few soft spots at the table, but, just through the luck of the way the cards fell, I kept mixing it up with that group of three guys. I finished up on the group of them, but down to one of the three.

They left about an hour or two before Kurt and I left the table, and I went from card dead to getting a few playable hands. I played a few cool little hands with 88 and 55, but, for the most part, everything was pretty standard.

I had position on Kurt, so I was able to float him with air in a 3 bet pot and take it away when he checked the turn. I was thinking "w00t! I am in a hand against someone who knows how to fold!"

Kurt and I both finished up a hair under one buy in each.

Where are the hookers and blow? No trip to the strip clubs?(Hooters doesn't count)

smh... FAIL!

lol jk, that's part of the reason I think I enjoy live poker more, interacting with friends(or even strangers) and the chatter and social aspect. Way better than grinding 50k hands a month in a dark room by yourself.

I've been doing some thinking though. Vegas is different from LA because in LA some games are capped, but get outta the 1/2 game. The rake is killer and I'm no longer sure it's really beatable, at least not for much. If you're drunk that's a different story though lol

Man, as we were coming out of the MGM that night I told Kurt and *Split* it was time for hookers and blow, but they weren't up for it.

1/2 seems easily beatable.

According to the feedback in this thread, of the six 1/2 and 1/3 sessions I have played, 3 of them have been of above average difficulty. Nevertheless, every one of them has seemed beatable.

Not that it matters because of the sample size, but at the moment I seem to be at $29/hr. at 1/2.

As for variance, my sessions have been pretty variance free so far, a fact which will no doubt change. I haven't taken any bad beats, I have only been all in two or three times in the 22 hours I have played, and I have only gone to showdown all in once that I can recall.

So, in that regard, I have run good. In other ways I have been running bad--I have only hit two sets and haven't been paid with either one. I am 0 for 14 in flopping a pair with AQ or AK, and, for the most part, I have been really card dead.

So, I dunno. Maybe the run good and run bad is more or less a wash at this point.

So I look at the facts that I have run bad in table assignment, have run bad in some ways, run good in some ways, and I think, "this game is easily beatable." Even at the tough tables I have seen so far, there is little doubt in my mind that I could pull a nice profit from those games. My $29/hr doesn't seem that out of line on the high side to me. It "feels" pretty close to a sustainable win rate. A WR of $20/hr is a solid hourly wage, in my opinion. My online and coaching hourly rates are both higher, though, so 1/2 wouldn't be for me. But my wife and I could somewhat easily live on 20/hr if we had to, so I have no qualms about saying that a good player can make a living wage at 1/2 here.

I'm aware that it may seem I am extrapolating from an absurd sample, but like I said upthread, the main thing I am doing is not looking at my wr, but looking at the other players' games and trying to ascertain whether I have a giant/big/decent/small edge against the field based on their play, not based on the wr I achieve. At this point, wrt 1/2, I am leaning toward my edge being big.

One thing I have discovered is that there is no way I am going to be able to be a full time pro; I can't sit at the table for more than two hours before my back is in pain, and the longest session I have been able to put in so far is 4.5 hours. If we do move out here, I'll have to continue mixing online play and coaching into my "work day." There's just no way I could take sitting at those tables for a 10 hour work day.

You look exactly as I pictured you. Soul read by me I guess.

Nice analysis, and the games are def soft at 1/3 in Vegas, but the buy-in is usually higher compared to L.A.

In L.A. I usually go to Hollywood Park since it's like 3 minutes from my house. Buy-in capped at $100 with a 4+1 drop on any flop, that's a stack and a half coming off the table every hour. I need to sit down one week and record how much money comes TO the table on average though. I'm not sure it's that much over 150 if it is, and factoring in tips/food/drinks it's a tad bit more. Not much money to split up between the good players. Guess you gotta pray to run good and hit the 2/5-200 max game ASAP.

Maybe I'll make a thread about analyzing the low stakes L.A. games to see if you can beat the rake, but I fear I might blow my brains out after a short while.

KurtSF looks exactly as I pictured him too

oh wait he actually uses his real photo as avatar

So does Mpethy.

Mpethy, count me in as another who is definitely enjoying your insights on this thread!

I'm a part time 1/2 grinder in Vegas, although I am far below any level even close to you. I may be at the Venetian this weekend and will keep an eye out for your guys.

Just out of curiosity, if you did move out here do you think you would ever consider doing any live coaching?

LOL, zing.

Live coaching had never occurred to me. Hmm <puts on thinking cap>....

Thanks for the compliment. I reread the whole thread last night, and most of the real insight ITT has come from the regs in this forum. I hope I have added a bit, too, though.

How would you adjust vs tight internet nits to loose overly aggressive fish that possibly steal with position?

Mpethy - I would read and listen to everything on 2+2 and DC podcasts with Limon on viability of playing 5/10 live for a living.

From what I understand - its pretty tough to be making a living at 5/10.

glgl