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Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop?

01-07-2014 , 05:24 PM
Table: Overall decent. 1/2 Monday afternoon. A few good sized stacks. A bunch of spots. V in question isn't specifically but doesn't seem that great. Maybe 4:30 in the afternoon. Table is 8 handed at the moment.

Hero: At the table in the last hour and a half, I'm sure that I look a bit laggy. I've raised at least 8 times and I'm not sure if I've shown down a winner from any of them yet. I've won a decent number of the pots through aggression, and folded 1-2 times at showdown when I didn't have the best hand. I 3bet one time so far, cBet the flop with it, but didn't show down when this V folded. ($500)

V: Seems a bit weak. Opens on the small side. He opens anywhere between 10-14 but it doesn't seem to be related to position, or limpers. It may be related to hand strength, but I don't have any data points to go on. He hasn't made it to show down that I've seen yet. He limps/calls a fair amount. Overall I'd say he's a bit passive. But that may be just card dead related. He has opened 4-5 times in the 2 hours that I've been at the table. Does not seem to be putting much thought into hands that he is playing, and acts somewhat quickly. (~$450)

Hand:
3 folds
V opens from CO for $13
3 folds
Hero calls in the BB with AJ

Flop ($25): Q6Q
Hero checks
V checks

Turn ($25): 6
Hero checks
V bets $15
Hero calls

In hind sight, I think maybe leading the turn can be good here. It would be nice to move him off an ace, and possibly any pocket pair. After I check though, I think he can bet a lot of Ace high hands, possible he bets K high. He of course is almost always betting any Q or any 6, but Q's seem unlikely after the flop check ya?


River ($63): Q
Hero checks
V bets $20
Hero raises to $70
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-07-2014 , 06:50 PM
I really hate just flatting from the blinds in a heads-up pot with your hand. I am either going to fold and just move on or three-bet and try to take the pot down now. It sounds like he opens sort of wide, so I would go ahead and three-bet.

As played, I don't really like it. What was your plan if he bet the flop? Why do you think he would check back the flop? Is he the kind of player who is going to c-bet with air?

I think by just flatting pre, you are going to need to make a move at this pot. I don't think the river is the right time to do it. I mean, what are you really repping by taking a check, c/c turn, lead river line? It doesn't add up.
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-07-2014 , 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Brice
I really hate just flatting from the blinds in a heads-up pot with your hand. I am either going to fold and just move on or three-bet and try to take the pot down now. It sounds like he opens sort of wide, so I would go ahead and three-bet.

As played, I don't really like it. What was your plan if he bet the flop? Why do you think he would check back the flop? Is he the kind of player who is going to c-bet with air?

I think by just flatting pre, you are going to need to make a move at this pot. I don't think the river is the right time to do it. I mean, what are you really repping by taking a check, c/c turn, lead river line? It doesn't add up.
Opening 4-5 times in 2 hours (about 60 hands) seems wide to you lol??

Anyways, as played I don't hate river line, if he is passive enough he might have monster under the bed syndrome and lay down his A assuming you have a Q (even if it doesn't make sense with your line)
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-07-2014 , 08:11 PM
meh. i dont like this river raise. you'll actually get called alot with all sorts of nonsense that chops w/ you and you'll lose to not only quads but random 77-JJ which decides you "can't" have quads.

as played river is a standard check/call for the price you're getting.
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-07-2014 , 08:15 PM
Think Turn CR is better. As played I think this line will work often enough to be profitable. There are rake considerations ie is there rake in split pots or not. In rooms where I play there is no rake and so c-raising in this spot is good.

It doesnt look like V has AA, KK or a Q here often. Do you have plan if V 3-bets the river?
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-07-2014 , 08:43 PM
I don't think he ever 3bets the river without a Q/KK+, so I'm pretty much snap folding.
And I would expect him to 3bet fold about .0001% of the time so I would never shove.

I'll admit my line doesn't really make sense.
But I don't get the feeling from this guy that he's thinking about the entire hand.
I'm putting him more on the '****, there's quad queens possible, I only have an Ace I have to fold' type mentality.

Just wasn't sure is his line look like A/K high often enough to make it profitable. As opposed to a smaller PP that might call, might fold, and whatever else he might have.
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-07-2014 , 08:56 PM
For simplicity, lets assume pot after V's river bet is 80, and you bet 80 (60 on top of villain), as long as V doesnt have a 77-JJ hand > 50%, this is profitable. I think you need to construct a range for V's pfr. I think you can discount AA, KK to some % given the way the hand was played lets say 2 combo each and JJ.TT to say 3 combo each as he'd be betting for protection against overcards at least 50% of time. So it depends on how many high card combos he can have there?
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-07-2014 , 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattgunner25
Opening 4-5 times in 2 hours (about 60 hands) seems wide to you lol??
5 into 60 is 8.3%. If I select the top 8.3% of hands from Stove, that means he is opening with 88+, AJo+, ATs, KTs+. That is the definition of opening wide.

I know sample size, etc. But without specific hands that OP saw him opening wide with, I would say that is a pretty good estimation of his range.
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-07-2014 , 09:24 PM
Tim 12x5=60 12% but point taken..
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-07-2014 , 09:26 PM
Never folding pre. Calling or 3betting like always. 3bet depends on how fit or fold he is post.

AP I hate your river raise. You're going to get "heroed" a ton because your line makes zero sense. Even quick thinkers sigh call here. If he is capable of bluffing then call his river bet. Raising is spew me thinks.


Oh and... Wankers.
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote
01-08-2014 , 01:35 AM
pre is fine, I'd mix in a few 3 bets, but overall I'd rather play post flop w/ this guy because I think he makes more mistakes and we get more value post flop.

flops fine, turn I think I may lead as opposed to c/c or c/r. I think once you just call the turn it's real hard to raise the Q river credibly. So again, I'd opt to lead the river. It's hard for him to raise and he very well may decide he doesn't want to contest a small pot while just playing the board.

I think he is always calling 77+ weather you lead or check/raise the river. Because of this, leading accomplishes roughly the same thing while costing us less when he has a pp. Speaking of which, your sizing seems to large. A raise to $55 should be enough to get it done.

I'm wondering why you interpreted his small river bet as weakness? What sizing would you expect from 77+? Just curious, because you never have JJ+ do to pre. And once he bets it's unlikely that you would be turning 77-TT into a bluff, when he can have all the pp's,

Last edited by patchohare; 01-08-2014 at 01:45 AM.
Is this a good spot to move a V off a likely chop? Quote

      
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