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Old 01-29-2016, 10:30 PM   #1
Mr. Curious
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Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

$2/5
9 Handed

Stacks'n'Reads
SB: $400: nit (calls himself "conservative" and I've seen him fold an over pair to big aggression even though it was clear to the table that he was ahead)
BB: $250: MAWG
MP1: $300: Asian dude
MP2 (Hero): $300: After doing some soul searching, I think I am seen as loose passive by the table

Preflop
Hero is MP2 with 6 5

2 folds, MP1 raises to $20, Hero calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: A 7 8
Pot: $75 (after rake)

Checks around

Turn: 9
Pot: $75 (after rake)

SB bets $60, BB tanks and calls, MP1 folds, Hero ?

I think BB has a flush draw, maybe including a T or 6.
Given the flop check, I ranged SB on set (20%), flush (30%), top pair (20%), two pair (20%), nut flush draw (10% - because he is so nitty). I did not think he had a straight because I couldn't see him calling a preflop raise in the SB with either JT, T6, or 65 (even if they were suited).
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Old 01-29-2016, 10:47 PM   #2
kekeeke
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

if he is so nitty that he folds JTss he only has 4 maybe 5 combos (KT, KJ, KQ QJ, QT) of made flushes, do you trust your reads?

if yes, repop to 220, check back river.

don't let him freeroll his equity by calling when he never puts more in unless he has you beat OTR.
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Old 01-29-2016, 10:50 PM   #3
dwannabe
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Maybe I'm a total nit but for some reason I think I just call here.

Knowing a lot of action could be killed on the river. But I'd be okay with that as we are no where near pot committed here and SB won't call with worse and highly doubtful he's folding a flush if he has it.
He may not even be betting much worse than you have here based on your description.
You're not getting full value here with this low end straight. I think accept that. Flat and re eval. the river. You have position!
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Old 01-29-2016, 11:08 PM   #4
matzah_ball
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

What on earth is happening pre
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Old 01-30-2016, 12:11 AM   #5
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matzah_ball View Post
What on earth is happening pre
Apparently 15:1 implied is enough to call any two napkins from MP.
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Old 01-30-2016, 12:33 AM   #6
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

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Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
Apparently 15:1 implied is enough to call any two napkins from MP.
Lulz...
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:43 AM   #7
BadlyBeaten
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Take a card off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Curious View Post
I think BB has a flush draw, maybe including a T or 6.
Given the flop check, I ranged SB on set (20%), flush (30%), top pair (20%), two pair (20%), nut flush draw (10% - because he is so nitty). I did not think he had a straight because I couldn't see him calling a preflop raise in the SB with either JT, T6, or 65 (even if they were suited).
^ Sick reads. I put SB on the nut draw 20%, but then when I saw you had 10% I was like, "yeah, he's right, it's 10%."
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:51 AM   #8
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Pre is terrible.
Turn: there's a bet and call, and you have the worst made hand. Basically a bluff catcher. I don't like bluff catchers in multiway pots, and not with another street of action. If you see a safe river, are you willing to stack off? If the answer is no, fold now.
For me, I don't want to have to soul read a shove with his hand, so I'm folding pre, folding turn.
And, a lot of cards make your hand worse: any spade, board pair, additional higher straights.

Don't play this junk pre. And fold to this turn action.
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Old 01-30-2016, 12:06 PM   #9
Nice_Guy_Eddie
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

A perceived nit bets almost the pot into three opponents oop with a flush and straight on the board. Hero has the ass end of a straight. I think this is closer to a fold than a shove. I doubt a nit bets with two pair or a set. He's betting with more flushes and some JT than you think. If you remove the two pair/set combos and add a few more flushes/JT to his range, your equity plummets to around 22% against him. Do you think he'll fold a non-nut flush? If not, then there is no point in raising.

I disagree with your SB range, but let's look at it. Which hands will he call with worse? Someone who will fold an overpair to aggression isn't calling with anything but a made flush. You're raising to protect your equity and get single spade hands to fold. I think this range fits BB more than SB.

I guess you can call and hope for a checkdown on the river. I'd fold because the small blind makes a really strong move and your hand doesn't have any real chance of improving. You may be ahead now, but you have to fade all spades, tens, jacks, and pairing cards.

Maybe your opponents view you as loose-passive because you're calling raises with 65o in middle position. That's the definition of preflop loose-passive, imo.

Last edited by Nice_Guy_Eddie; 01-30-2016 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 01-30-2016, 01:41 PM   #10
Mr. Curious
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice_Guy_Eddie View Post
Maybe your opponents view you as loose-passive because you're calling raises with 65o in middle position. That's the definition of preflop loose-passive, imo.
As you and others have pointed out, calling preflop in that position with these stacks with those cards is bad. I realize that now and look forward to addressing that leak.
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Old 01-30-2016, 01:49 PM   #11
Mr. Curious
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Curious View Post
$2/5
9 Handed

Stacks'n'Reads
SB: $400: nit (calls himself "conservative" and I've seen him fold an over pair to big aggression even though it was clear to the table that he was ahead)
BB: $250: MAWG
MP1: $300: Asian dude
MP2 (Hero): $300: After doing some soul searching, I think I am seen as loose passive by the table

Preflop
Hero is MP2 with 6 5

2 folds, MP1 raises to $20, Hero calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: A 7 8
Pot: $75 (after rake)

Checks around

Turn: 9
Pot: $75 (after rake)

SB bets $60, BB tanks and calls, MP1 folds, Hero ?

I think BB has a flush draw, maybe including a T or 6.
Given the flop check, I ranged SB on set (20%), flush (30%), top pair (20%), two pair (20%), nut flush draw (10% - because he is so nitty). I did not think he had a straight because I couldn't see him calling a preflop raise in the SB with either JT, T6, or 65 (even if they were suited).
Continuing the hand...

Hero decides to call (still passive I guess?). I was hoping to see a cheap showdown and thought that I was probably ahead and felt I could comfortably fold any spade. Folding and raising seemed about equal.

My thinking and action here on the turn factoring in my reads was one of the three reasons I posted the hand (the other is calling preflop which we all agree is horrible, the other is what to do on the river).

From the feedback, it seems like all three are fairly close with it leaning towards fold > raise > call.

River: T
Final board: A 7 8 9 T
Pot: $225

SB bets $100, BB instafolds, Hero ?

SB's bet did not feel like a value bet from a flush (from this particular opponent anyways). I'm confident he pushes with a flush.

Last edited by Mr. Curious; 01-30-2016 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Added final board for easier reading
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Old 01-30-2016, 02:17 PM   #12
Hardball47
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Curious View Post
Continuing the hand...

Hero decides to call (still passive I guess?). I was hoping to see a cheap showdown and thought that I was probably ahead and felt I could comfortably fold any spade. Folding and raising seemed about equal.

My thinking and action here on the turn factoring in my reads was one of the three reasons I posted the hand (the other is calling preflop which we all agree is horrible, the other is what to do on the river).

From the feedback, it seems like all three are fairly close with it leaning towards fold > raise > call.

River: T
Final board: A 7 8 9 T
Pot: $225

SB bets $100, BB instafolds, Hero ?

SB's bet did not feel like a value bet from a flush (from this particular opponent anyways). I'm confident he pushes with a flush.
Hero wonders, "wtf am I DOING in this hand?!"

Turn was a raise/fold. Now it's definitely a fold. SB likely has a medium flush looking to paid by AJ/Jx. If he's as nitty as you say, he wants to bet enough OTR to get paid by a straight and enough to fold to a raise. $100 seems just right for that goal.
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Old 01-30-2016, 02:35 PM   #13
dwannabe
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Just not sure what made hand he was betting on the turn you are beating now. A small chance he bets the turn with a set. But is he really betting that now with the 10 showing up on the river? Doubtful.

At hindsight it sounds like folding the turn is the best play.
If he's as nit as you say he's betting a J or better right? Fold.
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Old 01-30-2016, 02:41 PM   #14
QuadJ
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Turn call was OK if you could expect to check down river a lot. This depends on your nit though, will he take one stab fairly wide and stop betting anything less then the nuts when called or does his bet represent strong value that is likely to bet river again?

River turns your hand into a pure bluff catching hand. A nit isn't bluffing into multiple villains with a flush and 4 to a straight on the board. Easy fold at that point. I would need a villain that is a pathological bluffer or doesn't understand hand value to consider calling on this board.
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Old 01-30-2016, 02:48 PM   #15
Nice_Guy_Eddie
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Easy fold. If you hero called and won, you completely misread SB as a nit.
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Old 01-30-2016, 03:04 PM   #16
Amanaplan
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Fold pre - too shallow
Fold flop - RIO
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Old 01-30-2016, 03:11 PM   #17
Mr. Curious
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Curious View Post
River: J
Final board: A 7 8 9 J
Pot: $225

SB bets $100, BB instafolds, Hero ?
Damn it, I double read my post and still messed up the river. It was the Jack of clubs (fixed above), not the Ten. I doubt it changes what we should do...
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Old 01-30-2016, 03:42 PM   #18
QuadJ
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

The jack is actually a bit worse for you. More ways either villain can turn up with a ten given the way the hand played out and villain would have to put more tens in your range. That makes the river bet into two opponents even stronger.
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Old 01-31-2016, 03:16 AM   #19
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

The J is actually somewhat blankish; SB doesn't really have that many Ts in his range. We now know BB was drawing.

If we assume one of his cards is an ace, what are we beating? Everything w/o a T, right? That's huge.

And how often does he have an A, compared to how often does he have two spades. We can assume BB had a spade, and we have a spade.

It looks a whole lot like a call to me. Sometimes you have to take the odds. You shouldn't be doing that a lot in NLH, but I think I'm super tempted to play sheriff this one time. We can expect to see TT with a spade quite often, but there's $325 in there. I think it's close, but I think it's hard to get away.

I guess it's villain dependent; would this guy bet if he can't beat a T? Set of 999 with the 9 maybe. AJ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice_Guy_Eddie View Post
Easy fold. If you hero called and won, you completely misread SB as a nit.
^ Even a nit can have a bad nit day. This would be the exact opposite of a fish on a heater.

Last edited by BadlyBeaten; 01-31-2016 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:03 PM   #20
Mr. Curious
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Results:

Hero calls

Villain shows AT and takes the pot with a straight.
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Old 01-31-2016, 11:58 PM   #21
kekeeke
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Curious View Post
Results:

Hero calls

Villain shows AT and takes the pot with a straight.
I don't want to rub it in, but giving free equity to nits is a leak imo.

His range isn't that strong OTT since nits love to bet for protection, so he will have some 2p hands or TP+fd. His flushes already have you drawing dead. With your current line, you get zero value from the hands you beat, you let him freeroll his equity; he's going to check fold river if his hand doesn't improve while betting the part of his range that already had you drawing dead.

You win the minimum and lose the maximum by calling OTT.
Not to mention bad nits have trouble folding stuff like 2p before the river because they can boat up, you have position OTR and can play perfectly vs an uncreative opponent.
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Old 02-01-2016, 12:38 AM   #22
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Re: Monochrome flop, turned a straight, bombs away?

Here's a problem with playing junk hands - when you do hit, you get coolered a lot, or rather 'coolered' a lot.
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