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In a mess from the big blind In a mess from the big blind

04-18-2014 , 01:29 PM
game is full of recreational loose passive players. Normal in this game for people to call flop with all sorts of garbage then give up to a big bet on the turn.
MP is middle aged woman , has not played many hands and looks a bit intimidated not someone who would play any draws aggressively.

stack are ~200

Not sure if i should be betting flop or turn or river

6 limpers, I check in the BB with Q5

Flop Q96 ($12)
Hero bets $10, 3 callers.

Turn A (Pot $52)

Hero bets $50, 2 folds, MP quickly calls.

River J (Pot $152)
Hero checks intending to check fold
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-18-2014 , 01:54 PM
You should have Check/folded on the flop
You should have check/folded on the turn

Your $50 bet on the turn is not consistent with your read on the table. If people are hanging around on the flop with all kinds of hands like A9, A6, Axd, etc., then the ace should have ended the hand for you after you got three callers on the flop.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-18-2014 , 02:00 PM
OOP on a limped pot with a 5 kicker, I would check flop with the intention of c/c a flop bet and reevaluating turn. There is all kinds of crap that beats you on a limped pot here (sets, 2 pair, Q7s+) and the pot is not big enough to warrant going after it aggressively OOP. As played, I'd check turn after I lead flop. Your $10 bet OTF is unlikely to get rid of A6, A9, or Ax of diamonds. What are you trying to rep by leading turn? Set? AQ? AQ raises pre flop and so does 99 most of the time, unless you are playing an extremely passive game like rest of table. That A is more likely to improve your opponent's range than your own.. So you're pretty much turning your sd value into a bluff by repping a set of sixes once you lead turn. If your objective was to fold better Qs, you might get weaker players to fold a Q here but more capable players that can hand read are more often than not going to stick around, putting you on an uncomfortable spot on the river OOP. As played, I'd pray to god she's not capable of firing with her missed draws and c/f river.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-18-2014 , 02:02 PM
Betting the flop is meh because you will be value towning yourself a lot. I make this mistake a lot too. There might be times when we can profitably play a weak top pair from the blinds but c/f the flop is a safe way out. Your turn bet is basically a bluff vs other Qs.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-18-2014 , 05:34 PM
This is akin to lighting money on fire. Flop is either C/C or C/F, and I'm leaning towards C/F, since our kicker is horrible, the board is wet, and it's a limped pot. Don't worry so much about losing your big blind. When the buttons comes around, we can steal back the blinds that we surrendered, and probably more.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-18-2014 , 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leobzook

Flop: Hero checks intending to check fold
FYP

Very common leak from Blinds, easy enough to fix as well.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-18-2014 , 06:55 PM
Grunch:

Don't V-bet TPNK OOP on a wet multi-way board.

Def don't bet turn into 3 players, one of whom likely had the NFD and just paired their ace.

AP, c/f OTR is good, as is a shove if she looks intimidated an you put a boatload of draws in her range. She's prob not folding AdXd though, and that's a bunch of her range. We have some SDV, beating all of her FDs that weren't NFDs, so I prob c/f.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-18-2014 , 08:14 PM
To quote the late Bobby Hoff, "So I have TP on the flop. Big ****ing deal." How many people at your table are limping Q4 to Q2? The correct answer is almost none. If there is one, you'd have a read on them. If it checks around, then I don't mind a bet on the turn if there is no Ace.

As is, this is a c/f on the flop and turn.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-18-2014 , 09:14 PM
About a year ago I came across a 2+2 post that was a pretty large breakdown of all the TOP winning players winrate vs position.

The database was pretty big, 100ks of hands per player (online) and it brought to light a fact I think we all sorta forget...

Everyone, and I mean everyone is a LOSING player from the blinds.

Its not a question of becoming a winning player from the blinds. No, its a question of minimizing your losses from the blinds.

Too often (especially in live poker) players feel compelled to defend their blinds. If they catch a piece of the board they will often call on nothing more than a draw for two pair or trips. In spots like this, its common in the live game for the big blind to c/c down with TPNK for at least 2 streets before giving up.

After reading that thread my attitude about the blinds changed. I absolutely HATE the blinds. I hate playing from them and I definitely feel no obligation whatsoever to put more money in simply because I'm getting great odds. I forgot who said this, but a pro wrote, "when you complete your small blind, you are often paying for the privilege of playing mediocre cards from the absolute worst position possible."

Even though this is the big blind, I think of this as more or less the same.

This flop is an EASY c/f. If the flop checks through, then you can bet all non A and Non K turns.

Firing $50 on the turn in an attempt to buy your way out of a mess is just putting good money after bad. Too often, players with QJ and QT are still calling you down because they are terribad and calling down with meh hands on meh boards is what terribad players do.

Next time you are in this spot, don't be so aggressive with TPNK
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-18-2014 , 09:20 PM
C/f flop, c/f turn. Not really a spot you want or need to be in.
Dgi summed it up perfectly
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-19-2014 , 02:05 AM
With a hand like Q5o in 7way pot, im looking to flop 2p+ before im putting in any money. Im going to check fold top pair to any betting here.

Betting turn is absolute spew after you got so many callers. Ace high flush draws never folding the turn.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-19-2014 , 03:13 AM
feels like there's a lot of missed value to not betting the flop. people can call with tons of worst hands: every 9, 6, flush draw, and probably half a dozen straight draws.. Its true there are also better queens out there but I'm not saying op should go broke with his queen.

Against a passive table where a raise will usually indicate a better Q, it seems fine to me.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-19-2014 , 12:09 PM
No offense, roger_swanson, but this is the second post today I've come across where you say that something that all the winning regs call burning money should be standard. I think you need to google something called "Reverse Implied Odds."
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-19-2014 , 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
No offense, roger_swanson, but this is the second post today I've come across where you say that something that all the winning regs call burning money should be standard. I think you need to google something called "Reverse Implied Odds."

+1

And i also would like to add that actually listening to all the resources this forum holds is one of the keys to be able to develope your own game. Sure you can keep on thinking that you know more than everyone, but then you would miss a big opportunity to learn valuable stuff.

I have swallowed many camels myself since i joined 2+2, but it has been worth it.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-19-2014 , 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
No offense, roger_swanson, but this is the second post today I've come across where you say that something that all the winning regs call burning money should be standard. I think you need to google something called "Reverse Implied Odds."
that's fair. i don't think I'm better than everyone who said the opposite of what I did or knew for sure that what I think is right. you're more likely to be right than I am.

i don't know how much RIO applies here. I'm not advising OP to go broke in this situation. Simply stating that he can value bet here and get called by a lot of worse hands. Doesn't mean I think he should do it all 3 streets or look to get stacks in. Or that he isn't sometimes valuebetting a 2nd best hand.
In a mess from the big blind Quote
04-19-2014 , 12:56 PM
We are in the nut worst position (maybe second worst if SB completed). There are a million to the flop. We have TPNK on a FD board. 1) I don't think many players are bad enough to call a bare 6 here. 2) 9's are iffy to call on this board. 3) Basically every Q beats us 4) If called we have no idea where we are, and still have bad position and 4) If nobody hit this better than us, we have SDV that there is no need to turn into a bluff.

So much more downside to betting here than there is upside to getting a little value from J9s.

No implication that you're a know-it-all was intended, just that you seem to not understand the value of position and the danger of dominated hands yet.
In a mess from the big blind Quote

      
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