Villain is tricky and a little odd...he tends to play a tight/aggressive game for the most part, but will limp along pre with a wide range too. He 3-bets about once every two orbits which is WAY more than everyone else at the game does, even though it plays pretty deep for a 1/2. He seems to read hands well when up against better players, but still calls too much and overplays non-nut hands. Every once in awhile villain gets gambly and does stuff like straddle a button for $45 allin blind (I've played with him a lot).

Villain's view of us is an aggressive player who is capable of bluffing multiple streets and showing up with air and the nuts with basically the same line.

In general the players at this game are loose and sticky until the river.

1/2 NL, 8-handed, effective stacks $300.

3 limps, villain limps, sb completes, Hero checks in BB with Js7c.

Flop ($12) J76ss.

Checks around.

Turn ($12) 4d.

Sb checks, Hero bets $9, folds to villain who calls (no real timing tell), rest fold.

River ($30) 5c

Hero bets $15, Villain plays with chips about 10 seconds and raises to $35.

Hero..

I would lead flop.

Would you call this river raise with JT?
Should give you the answer. Depends on V, but probably not.

I would not call with JT, but I strongly disagree that JT = J7 here.

bet flop.

call river

bet the flop!!!!

My thought process was that I could get more money in with a flop c/r than a lead.

lot of vs are checking here with draws to get the free card

I wouldn't do that with 2 pairs on a drawy board, you could have folded hands on the flop that now beat you, and you would have had call from hands that you were dominating and would still be dominating.

But now there is a good chance V cought something. Since you weren't too aggressive trough the hand, he might be bluffing, plus you have 4 to 1 odds, so you should call.

You only have to be good here ~ 20% of the time to make a call profitable. There are many worse two pairs and bluffs that will do this to make the probability of you having the best hand greater thanks 20%.

Call.

And, oh yes, let the flop.

I thought so too. I was throwing out a blocker basically on the river and still got raised, but felt like he could be doing this with KJ (though not often) and a lot of worse two pairs often enough.

Thanks for mentioning what I should do in this spot and not being so obsessed with the flop action that you can't answer the question. JC this board sometimes.

Might want to give this a read.

Cool story bro. Nobody is saying 'don't comment on other streets.' What they are saying is 'hey man, answer the tough question instead of ignoring it but still taking the time to post about another street you think is easier, to make yourself look smarter'.

go away then.

The river is inconsequential because the results are meaningless and variable. X% of the time he will have 98 or 88 (more likely) and Y% of the time he will have some random two pair hand that you beat (less likely). The decision comes down to how you have observed V play two pair hands in the past and how he has played four card straight boards. Some two sentence qualitative "read" isn't going to allow some random person on the internet to tell you what will succeed 100% of the time. Generally, min-raises on the river are the nuts. They are so easy to call that they literally make no sense to bluff min-raise because people ALWAYS CALL.

The "tough" street is actually the flop and the leak that you should be looking to plug. You flopped two pair on a super wet board with straight draws and a flush draw out there and you are 6 handed. You should be thinking "FAT VALUE OPPORTUNITY." But two pair is just a hair better than TPTK and I doubt you would be checking AJ here, so why check two pair?

The value you lose by allowing this to check through > the value you gain by betting the flop > the value you gain by C/R the flop

Toss $15 out there and see who wants to bite. Have you counted all the potential action killers out there? 9 for the flush, 3 Aces, 3 Kings, 3 Queens, 3 Tens, 3 Nines, 3 Eights, 3 Fives, 3 Fours, 3 Threes. 36 cards. 70% of the time, the card that hits the turn will potentially put someone else ahead of you (and I am even skipping some cards). In a 6-way limped pot, it's very likely you will lose this hand by checking this flop.

If you are going to C/R, do it as a semi-bluff with a hand that can make the nuts, like Axs (or Axs + a pair). C/R semi-bluffs are awesome because people fold them so often fearing a monster that when you are called, you've still got plenty of equity (if you do it with a nut draw). Two pair is way too vulnerable a hand to C/R with. You want to get money into the middle ASAP.

So yes, sorry for not answering your question about the "tough" decision, but it literally does not matter. If you take one thing away from this thread it should be to never check two-pair in a multiway limped pot ever again because it is nothing more than FPS.

People commented because you managed to only get nine bucks in good when you were crushing their range,which is more important than whatever you do on this river.

I probably call river because I'm a donkey and I want to see his hand.

Very nice post by johnnyBuz.

Flop is a clear lead.

AP, I doubt he's raising worse two pair for value OTR. Hardly anyone at 1/2 goes for thin-value like that. He's got a straight almost always here. You said you bet out as a blocker bet, which means you intended to fold to any raise. So why change your mind now?

I know V's description suggests that he's capable of doing this with worse hands, but I feel he's more likely to do this with missed FDs than worse 2 pair. Also, his sizing is begging for a call.

This is a great post full of strong thought process. I was thinking I would do the exact same thing again next time given the table, but you've convinced me otherwise.

That being said, I think we DO have to c/r with made hands against regulars sometimes so that they don't always put us on the hands you suggested, but perhaps we can pick better spots than this one.