1-2

V is white man aged 40´s. Running good. Plays very loose. Capable of attacking pots. Misses some value bets. Hand half an hour before (both have $500 plus) he blind raised to $10 in second position pre (with AA...lucky man!!!), some calls, hero called in SB 66. Board QcQd5h8s9d (no possible flush draws) action went hero bet 1/2 pot ($25), V call, everyone else folds. Hero bet $50 on turn, V called. River check/check. V shows and hero muck secretly.

Hero is young indian. TAG image.

Extremely tight old man limps UTG (saw limp with AA before), 1 more limper. hero ($500) limps 2 from button 87, 1 from button raises to $10 (would raise more with a premium hand), V ($800) calls, blinds fold, OMC calls, limper calls.

Flop $50 TT8

Check to hero who bets $25, V calls, everyone else folds.

Turn $100 2

Hero bet $50, V calls

River K

Hero check, V bet $115, Hero calls.

Comments? Thanks very much.

Fod river and c/f turn.

He has a 10 almost always in that spot imo (or overpair)

What is your bet on the flop? Is it for value? I think you can't be called by anything significantly worse. Even a lot of draws have around 50% equity against your hand: FD plus over card or OESD plus overcard or gutshot plus two overcards.

Is it a bluff? Will better hands fold? 99? A8? Probably not for a single bet on the flop and do you want to start double and triple barrelling to represent trips when you could easily be facing trips or someone getting sticky with an overpair? Is a half pot bet on a wet board vs 4 players strong enough to represent trips and fold better hands? I think probably not - more defines your hand as a pair 99 8x 77-22. With potential straight and flush draws out against him a player with trips would bet closer to pot IMO.

To be honest I would just x/f flop on this board so multiway. You played 87s to hit a monster or decent draw cheaply in position. You are now in a multiway raised pot OOP bs the preflop aggressor on a board that is easily hit by a load of limpers and a loose preflop aggressor. Your mid pair in this case has no value unless the hand gets checked all the way to showdown.

As played x/f river.

I hate flop most...

As played - River is close... I do not think he has Tx much at all here (I am not sure why we would think this???).

I dislike the hand in general and think its too marginal (and frankly bad) - but as playied I think the river is a call... his value range should be very narrow here and his missed draws way more likely.

A useful mantra for me is, "He's playing face-up. He's playing face-up."

Unless you have reason to be suspicious, you're almost always better off just believing your opponent. In both hands, he's trying desperately to tell you that you're beat. He's waving a huge banner in front of you telling you that you're beat.

This is particularly true at 1-2 and in multiway pots, against villains who are decent players and who don't seem to be getting out of line in terms of frequency of bets. You will occasionally be bluffed out of a pot, but in the long run, it's +EV to just believe your opponent.

Typed out a long reponse and then lost it. doh.

Basically I think flop is marginal. If we bet, perhaps a little more defines our hand better and has the chance of getting draws with a lot of equity to fold. IDK.

I think the river is close if we think he bluffs all his whiffed draws with no pair. Given the other hand he probably doesn´t value bet 99-JJ, possibly not a KsXs,K8s. Not sure what his bet sizing means exactly. We only need 26% equity to call. I soul read here, decide based on that. Super close IMO.

Given our weak bet sizing this is the range I give him. He might fold the weak 8's and OESD's on the turn knowing that his outs might give us a boat. IDK

Board: TcTs8c2hKd
Equity Win Tie
MP2 35.82% 33.33% 2.49% { 8d7d }
MP3 64.18% 61.68% 2.49% { JJ-88, ATs, A8s, KTs, QTs, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, AsQs, KsQs, AsJs, KsJs, QsJs, As9s, Ks9s, Qs9s, Ks8s, Qs8s, Js8s, As7s, Ks7s, Qs7s, As6s, Ks6s, As5s, Ks5s, As4s, Ks4s, As3s, Ks3s, As2s, Ks2s, ATo, A8o, KTo, QTo, J9o+, T8o+, 97o }


If we get rid of 99 (because we don't think he value bets it) and 97,87

Board: TcTs8c2hKd
Equity Win Tie
MP2 29.96% 27.97% 1.99% { 8d7d }
MP3 70.04% 68.04% 1.99% { JJ-TT, 88, ATs, A8s, KTs, QTs, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, AsQs, KsQs, AsJs, KsJs, QsJs, As9s, Ks9s, Qs9s, Ks8s, Qs8s, Js8s, As7s, Ks7s, Qs7s, As6s, Ks6s, As5s, Ks5s, As4s, Ks4s, As3s, Ks3s, As2s, Ks2s, ATo, A8o, KTo, QTo, J9o+, T8o+ }

I think a lot of time he would raise a Ten on the turn to charge all the draws. As stated before KXs might not value bet. These two variables strengthen the argument for calling.

If we think he bluffs his missed draws I think we are clearly getting odds to pick off a bluff here.

Good analysis kookiemonster - river is closer than I thought.

Real easy to get blown off the best hand on this flop. In a vacuum prefer a check here. Rest of the hand seems ok. In game probably never folding this river without reads to this player.

Oh, and raise pre. Limping is pretty bad here IMO.

raise pre and check post

A bit off topic. OP, you described two hands to us and in both cases you weren't aggressive in either of them. My guess is that the table doesn't view you as TAG, but rather tight passive. One of the things to hurts all players is not having being honest with themselves. It can cost you a lot of money as you're surprised in the end how your villains actually act.

As for the hand, SC suck in a limped pot. The reason is that good players need to have a lot of the flop to hit them in order to play it. If that's the case, there's little left for anyone else to have. You end up winning small pots. A raise pf is a better option. The reason is that over 20% of the time, you're going to have some equity after the flop that you can use to bet.

As played, I'd check the flop. You have 2nd pair, no kicker. You're either going to win a small pot or lose a big one most of the time. You want to keep the pot small. As a side, you're betting very weakly, which means if any is paying any attention, they know you don't have a FD or a T, but rather a weak pair.

On the river, the villain either by accident or purpose made a great bet if he has a hand. You've been betting 1/2 pot the whole way, so that's you're pain point. The extra $15 is just pure profit. Kookiemonster's range is way too wide. He's got the goods a lot of the time.

Good points Venice10.

Especially important to correctly identify 1) who is observing your play 2) what their perception of your play is. It almost doesn't matter what your perceived style is as long as you recognise what it is in each opponent's eyes and take advantage of it.

Also the cards or the flow of play may cause you to be perceived differently to how you play the majority of the time. You have to be aware of this rather than think "I am a TAG so I must be perceived to be a TAG".

Back to the hand: If OP is perceived as very passive and foldy then villain could have a wide range, like kookiemonster's example, and plan to bluff with missed draws. I would want a very strong read to this effect before calling river though. Without history/reads I would assume villain has JJ+ frequently enough to make calling river bet unprofitable - that's based o my experience, not any maths so make of it what you will.

Venice10's other point about SC in limped pots is a good one. I see it all the time where it gets limped around and goes 6 way to the flop. Two or three players gii on the flop or turn and you see a two-pair and a pair plus draw drawing dead vs the nut straight.

If you all limp in and it does get heavy postflop you cant think "I'm crushing aces here with my two pair". It isn't a big hand like it would be vs an EP preflop raiser. If you do manage to gii expect to be shown a set or straight. Similarly making a small flush and managing to gii often sees you beat flush-over-flush.

However, if the table is soft enough you may find you can afford to limp behind in late position with a lot of hands and win so much when you hit and get called down by second pair that you can afford to throw away a lot of hands in the process. At the same table if you played more aggressively with SC you would find your lack of fold equity made the aggressive line unprofitable. I'd rather isolate from position with Broadway hands in and A8+ in these games and pls the SC passively preflop.

I think there is a line where the table becomes tight enough/tough enough that you will get whittled away taking the passive line because pots aren't multiway as often, limping is infrequent and EP raises are always solid hands that are going to be played well postflop. Then it becomes +EV to take an aggressive lime with SC in late position. You may even use them in your light 3bet range and maintain aggression postflop frequently. Now you have fold equity this line is much more profitable.

Furthermore in tough games you have to disguise your play with some attempt at balancing your ranges if you want to get paid and avoid being exploited.

Raise 66 from SB?

Raise 87s when old man limped with aces UTG? old man will make small bets after pre so let me draw for cheap. I call to flop straight or flush and bust his aces not bet hand for him or get limp raise! bet his hand for him now when I have nothing is huge mistake! Am I crazy?

OP, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that UTG old man limps with more hands than precisely a range of {AA}.

so because he limped AA 1 time, he's going to have AA every time he limps?

and if a V wants to limp/reraise me with AA, i'm happy to fold or call knowing exactly where i am if i get the right odds. he has AA, maybe KK, or QQ at worst and has no idea if the board hit us or not, but we have a very very good idea if the board hits him.

but you'd be surprised, more times than not, he will have nothing and either fold pre, or fold to a flop cbet.

I think your image is a bit different than TAG. But others have covered that issue.

First, I'd raise pre with that hand and position. Calling with mid SC's in multi-limped pots puts you in a difficult spot unless you hit a nuttish hand. If you're willing to play this hand for a pot this size, spend the money early so you can narrow Vs range, and potentially get away from the hand for a cheaper price if you're likely unable to win the hand.

Call me a nit, but As played, I'm probably folding river. I don't see how you're good enough times here.

V's little raise pre looks like a high-ish pair 88-JJ or AJsuited-AK. JJ-KK would likely raise more. AA might play this way to trap, but doubt it, would prob raise more as well.

Personally, I love bombing a big reraise PF when these smallish raises happen, but it depends on my image, V's stack size and position. Hard to do if you've already limped from late position, and might look like complete BS.

Looking at this again I'd prefer to see you fold preflop after your limp got raised. Despite the good pot odds you are going to struggle to play SC postflop OOP vs a loose and aggressive opponent.

I'm also now questioning limping behind if the player in position is frequently raising limpers. If this is the case I'm with the others: Raise 'em or fold 'em. Limping behind is fine if you are unlikely to get raised but burning money otherwise.

His initial statement was not necessarily advocating that you should have done anything different in the two hands. It was simply a notation that based on those two hands your image is quite possibly not TAG and you should have a realistic assessment of what your image really is in order to make optimal decisions.

OTF, I'm not sure you're betting with a purpose; I would guess you're instinctively betting for protection. However, if you're trying to protect against a flush draw, you're still giving your opponents proper odds to draw, not to mention two spade overs are statistically ahead. I think a check is preferable.

OTT, the bet isn't as bad as the flip bet, but again the sizing is such that flush draws with overs are getting decent odds to draw. Your bet almost serves as a blocking bet, which is odd since I believe you think you're getting value from a FD. I'd much rather c/c the turn now that you're HU with villain.

OTR, I actually don't mind check/call line, assuming you have reason to believe V will bet his missed draws on the end without balancing it with thin value. I think it's fair to assume he checks back Kx of spades on the river, and since there are likely more combos of missed spades than are Tx in Vs range, the call seems fine.