9-handed 1/2nl table. sb is a bad loose spewtard who thinks he can win every hand,raise 70-80% hands and call with lots of trash hands.BT is a nitty tight regular old guy. The table just opens,so hero has no image at all.UTG straddles $5,mp calls,bt calls,sb calls,hero raises to $27 with KQ in bb. UTG calls,bt calls, sb calls.
hero~$300
BT~$280
SB~$200
flop($115): K 4 5 SB INSTA open shoves for $170, hero fist pumping calls,UTG folds, BT thinks a while and shoves his remaining $240.So its back to hero to call off the remaining $80. Can we find a fold here? I crush sb's open shove range but not so sure about BT's range. Given huge pot odds and his limited set combos,calling here is +ev or not in the long run?

IMO the only question you should be asking yourself is why didn't you shove over. You wan't to charge draws the max.

He could have had a draw, though I'm guessing he didn't.

To late to fold with 75% of stack in the middle.

Fold or over-shoving SB is where the decision should be made.

$160 into $105. I dont have to charge any draws.I want worse pair hands to call.UTG is also a bad loose player who will call light with any TP hands.

Isnt the pot 285 after SB shoves 170 and you only have 270 behind??

Edit: Also I don't think you change the perceived strength of your hand much by flatting an open overpot shove as opposed to reshoving...

sorry. yeah, they still dont have odds to call $170 with any type of draws.I just think that shoving is too strong to get a call from worse made hands.

Agree that you are flipping at best with Button.

Since there's only $695 in the pot I would fold but if there was $700 in the pot I would call.

Far from a fist pump call imo.

I don't like raising this pre flop bc you usually get at least 2-3 callers and then you are oop with mediocre hand.

I don't think you are really going to get many calls from worse made hands either way you play it, so you might as well get more value from draws.

I agree that you are crushed by BT a fair amount of the time here.

This is absolutely a raise pre IMO. You only need to fold out the nitty button and then you are in a super pot with loose bad players. If he calls, I don't think being OOP vs this rogue's gallery is a disaster.

if you're posting asking for advice you should really be more recetive to the advice. The reason shoving is better than calling is because 1. you're never folding your last $80, 2. You need to charge draws the max. There isn't many worse hands that are calling an overbet shove and the original raisers call anyways man.

If you raise with AK and AQ,then KQ is no different than these two hands vs these loose droolers.

You are right that shoving is better than calling.Maybe i should raise to $35 to get headsup against SB loose spewy tard.Sizing mistake.

I got your point.Do you think that we should make a bigger pre raise to thin the field?I guess $27 is not enough to get the job done.

How much to raise pre is tougher and very dependent on the table. Against a fish station like this guy, you ideally want a bigger SPR going to the flop without a made hand.

If you bet $35 and get called by the SB, the pot will be 90, a SPR of 2, not ideal vs this player because he will not fold to your CBets very often. So you'd actually like a bigger SPR (maybe around 4-7? asking others this) so you can really value own him with your made hands.

Unfortunately, you also want to get it heads up vs him. People generally advise that you make it enough to accomplish this, but even fish have their limits.

I'd say that unless you think 35 would be a lot more effective in thinning the field (not likely) the benefit doesn't outweigh the downside of being handcuffed in a multi-way vs stations with a low SPR.

Do not raise KQ pre from the bb in straddled pot. These fish will call with Ax hands and a bunch of others thinking you are trying to steal and you'll be oop in a large multiway pot with K high hand.

Nit it up from bb and fold almost all your Sbs.