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Old 04-09-2014, 07:38 PM   #1
CardDead13
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Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

9 handed 1/2

UTG Villian 1( 300+) Just after winning a huge hand but has been opening 75% pots pre at a tight table. High C-bet on flop with tendency to shut down on turn unless he has it.

UTG+1 Villian 2 ( 200) Very loose calling station. Not really aggressive either pre or post flop.

HJ Villain 3 ( 40) Old lady.. Very poor. Calls huge amount of stacks pre and then shoves if checked to her on flops. On her 3rd/4th rebuy all of which are small.

CO Hero(210) TAG image but tables attention levels could be questioned. Have usually had the goods when its gone to showdown.

Hero dealt 6 6

Villain 1 opens to 7, called by Villain 2 and 3. Hero calls as does BB. (Pot 36)

Flop 6 2 6

Villain 1 C-bets for 35. Villain 2 calls. Villain 3 all in for 33. Hero calls. ( Main pot 170 - Side pot 6)

Turn K

Turned is checked all around.

River is 4 Villains 1 and 2 check, hero bets out 50. Villains 1 and 2 fold.

Hero tables quads to win. Villain 2 announces he had 1010 fwiw.

My question is whether my line is right. By calling the flop, checking back the turn and betting river if its checked to me I'm hoping to appear as if I'm trying to steal pot on river having called with 2 overs. Given villains showed no aggression on turn/river when K hits the turn and backdoor flush comes in on turn is this the right approach?

Just looking for opinions as to what stage would have been best to look for value? Would a min raise/raise on flop got much action? I was trying to think about hand from a potential villains point of view, with my tight image most wouldn't have put a 6 in my range having called pre would they? If you think along that line, 22 is the only hand they'd feel is crushing them if they have reasonable holdings given I'd have reraised pre with a premium pair and they wouldn't expect a reraise with 22 as most at 1/2 slowplay monsters trying to trap. With that train of thought, is a raise on the flop very bluffy looking and likely to get called by a any pocket pair or two big cards?

Just abit unsure as to how to reflect on/learn from hand. I may not have gotten value regardless of when I juiced pot but would appreciate opinions. Thoughts on river bet sizing be appreciated too. I was trying to make it appear as if I was looking for a cheap steal rather than an ultra small value bet. At that stage I had decided the best either villian had was 77-99 or ace high and was hoping for a call if I gave great value.
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Old 04-09-2014, 07:57 PM   #2
matzah_ball
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Flop raise is incredibly mandatory.
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Old 04-09-2014, 07:58 PM   #3
Garick
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

I usually (as if it happens that often) bet/raise quads because they never put you on quads. "If you really have quads, you'd never bet!" This time, though, it get's bet for us, and the other card is a lowly duck. I overcall too,though I don't like the AI shorty. I would raise here if I thought it could look like I was trying to create dead money with a draw, but this board is pretty damn dry.

OTT, I bet when it checks to us, and hope someone caught a K, even though there's a protected main.

AP, river bet is good.
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Old 04-09-2014, 08:09 PM   #4
Duke0424
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Calling flop is fine since you'll have a PSB left OTT, and it'll be quite easy to massage in stacks

A small raise OTF (like making it $75) is probably better though because it gets FDs to call and overpairs to call, and commits those hands OTT.
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Old 04-09-2014, 08:20 PM   #5
CardDead13
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

The more I thought about hand( afterwards when i hadn't got as much value as I wanted) I would have lean towards a small raise. Thanks for the feedback.

Bit of a weird dynamic to hand on the flop which I failed to mention in original post. When villain one bets 35 as his C-bet. Villain 2 throws out 60, an extra $25 chip then required. He was told by dealer that it was a call since he hadn't thrown out a raise/said raise etc.. He didn't exactly declare his intention either way and just took back additional chip. Don't know should this have influenced my decision. It would probably have made my hand look super strong if I then raised given the confusion over his intended action I suppose?
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Old 04-09-2014, 08:26 PM   #6
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Grunch: my god man. Why are you checking the turn?
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Old 04-09-2014, 08:47 PM   #7
wj94
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Min raise the flop
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Old 04-09-2014, 09:01 PM   #8
CardDead13
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
Grunch: my god man. Why are you checking the turn?
The check on the turn was based on a few things. One I expected Villain 1 to continue barrelling if he had made the K whereas I expected villian 2 to check if he had turned the K hoping to entice someone else to bet. When Villain 1 checks, I know he hasn't got it whereas a chance exists villain 2 may.

By checking it myself I hoped to have one of the two lead at the river. If river was a blank, they might do it as a steal attempt.

As I said if villain 2 has paired K on turn he will bet river for value if it has been checked back and the any card but an A hits on river.

If an A hits river, either could have paired it. Any other card could potentially give them a boat.

There are also two flush draws on board by the turn, I know you could say I could bet turn hoping to get a flush draw to call but it won't always happen on a paired board.However if someone makes the flush, they will lead river.

If river is checked to me I am hoping to make my bet look like a steal which I hope will be called by 55,77,88,99. The fact that I wasn't called on river by 1010 the way hand played out I found strange especially given river bet sizing.

Anyway that was my rationale for checking back the turn. I know its not building a pot but I'm only getting action from villains if they have hit king(aside from flush draws) and as I had ruled out Villain 1 from having K given his check I thought it was correct thing to do.
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Old 04-09-2014, 09:14 PM   #9
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

I like a small raise on the flop but it isn't a must with the nuts. The turn tho you miss tons of value. You could of bet something really small to get value from all draws and pairs etc.
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Old 04-09-2014, 09:20 PM   #10
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

These situations are really low EV no matter what you do. Your killing the board on the flop, it's almost impossible for anybody else to have a strong hand here. Having quads is always hard to get value, and here your hand looks absurdly strong once you call flop. Calling after the bet/calls/shove is never a float or a weak hand. Even clueless fish are thinking you have a big pocket pair, 33 or a 6 here. How can you be bluffing here after calling the shove? You have to think your beating him, and after the bet and call he has to have a decent pair or 6X.

Depending on villains there are a couple of options here. Your aiming to exploit your villain's bad play tendencies here. A min raise on the flop or a small suck bet on the turn look best here.
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Old 04-09-2014, 10:47 PM   #11
CallMeVernon
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

First of all, if you flop quads enough that maximizing value with it is "the bane of your existence", tell us your secret! I've flopped quads less than once on average for every year I've been playing poker.

Secondly, forget about all this "you have the board crushed" coming from half the replies. The key to this hand for me is, what do they have that 3 people are already interested in this flop? You know no one has trips, and if someone has 22 the money is probably going in somehow or other, and only one of them can have that anyway, so the thing I want to be focused on is flush draws.

I want to be raising this flop because I figure that on most runouts, the only streets I'll get value from a flush draw are the flop and turn. Plus, as Garick said already, a lot of times when you raise the flop, it looks like you are trying to protect your hand from a flush draw. So they won't fold--they'll put you on an overpair or trips, not realizing that they're drawing stone dead (except to a straight flush), and call a street or two.

Start building the big pot you want on the flop. You only have 203 to get in there, so 85/118 looks just fine to me.
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Old 04-10-2014, 02:42 AM   #12
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Min raise the flop
I was considering this. Min'ing it looks more like 6x to me though, 85-90 looks more like 88-99. But I'm definitely raising otf. It's a great flop for our quads. Only small fd's are folding, most aren't. 88+ isn't b/f'ing either. And unpaired broadway cards aren't putting more in anyway.
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Old 04-10-2014, 03:24 AM   #13
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

i am definitely not raising this flop with this kind of action in front me , considering we are last to act. Flatting all day everyday. Our hand does not look insanely strong, because 3 villains called in front of us as well.. sure, someone's hand is strong, but ours looks exactly as strong as the other 3 callers in the hand.

it is unfortunate that a king peeled the turn, and nobody had one, and the PFR shut down, and also nobody else bet... that is a lot of variables that could have all resulted in a bet, and calls in front of us.

But considering the turn checked around to us, I would bet something here. It looks like a huge sucker bet if we bet $40 or something again but this is probably what I'd do anyways. It also looks ridiculously small and everyone with a pair is going to hate to fold for such a small bet in such a big pot .. and anybody calling the flop with a flush draw is going to call again anyways being offered way better odds.

checking back however is not horrible either...considering everyone now checks. We are possibly allowing a couple pp's chances to hit 2 outters, and if anybody is hanging around with something stupid like a FD, we let them hit. The fact it checked through the king, may awaken some action on the river. If they werent going to call a smallish bet on the turn, they may now call on the river.

im also jamming any river card.
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Old 04-10-2014, 03:31 AM   #14
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

something that effects this hand as well is the shortstack.. you are less likely to be called lightly here when villains in the hand know they get to see what you have regardless. So they may fold hands here that they may have hero-called with normally , just on the grounds that they will get to see your cards either way.
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Old 04-10-2014, 03:43 AM   #15
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon View Post
First of all, if you flop quads enough that maximizing value with it is "the bane of your existence", tell us your secret! I've flopped quads less than once on average for every year I've been playing poker.

Secondly, forget about all this "you have the board crushed" coming from half the replies. The key to this hand for me is, what do they have that 3 people are already interested in this flop? You know no one has trips, and if someone has 22 the money is probably going in somehow or other, and only one of them can have that anyway, so the thing I want to be focused on is flush draws.

I want to be raising this flop because I figure that on most runouts, the only streets I'll get value from a flush draw are the flop and turn. Plus, as Garick said already, a lot of times when you raise the flop, it looks like you are trying to protect your hand from a flush draw. So they won't fold--they'll put you on an overpair or trips, not realizing that they're drawing stone dead (except to a straight flush), and call a street or two.

Start building the big pot you want on the flop. You only have 203 to get in there, so 85/118 looks just fine to me.
overpairs ..? i would imagine the players have hands like medium pocket pairs here mainly.

also just flatting if someone has a flushdraw makes way more sense to me for the reasons i said in previous post.

i think your are arguing for raising for the wrong reasons. I dont dislike a min/r on the flop , i think flatting is much better, but the argument for a min/r on the flop should be --- villains likely have small pp's that may call one street but fold when any overcard peels the turn.. we dont want to allow a scare card to peel and kill our action , which seems to have happened. If we successfully min/r , they may feel more obligated to call any raise on the turn. I do not think a raise on the flop should be big like we are 'protecting a 6' or something because people at 1/2 just dont range us in this fashion. They dont know that they may have equity enough to call with a FD vs a naked 6.. they think, "i have a flushdraw and its only $35, everyone else called so i'll call". They are not thinking , "villain raised to $70, which is indicitive of an overpair type hand that is raising for protection, because his bet sizing wouldn't be so large if he had flopped quads or a boat; he would just flat quads or a boat, therefore i have enough equity to call with my flushdraw." ..
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Old 04-10-2014, 04:04 AM   #16
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

1st world problems ITT, imo.
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Old 04-10-2014, 05:04 AM   #17
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Dear god in heaven, this hand makes me so freaking sad.

Lets forget about having quads, let's say we had TT in this spot and for the sake of argument, lets assume that we 100% know that no one has a six. What typically happens in these LLSNL type situations with this much action?

There is a principle of poker that I like to think about in spots where I flop the world and am nutted like a contestant in the Miss Thailand Ladyboy beauty pageant. The principle is called, "Build the pot".

When we are nutted, it is important that WE build the pot and not turn into some trappy trappy passive player that "hopes" someone else will do it for us. Whenever we are given the opportunity to build the pot, we have to take it. In this case, on the flop, when V1 bets $35 and V2 calls, and V3 goes all-in for $33, we have to raise the flop-- a min-ish raise.

If we min-raise is anyone ever folding? Even if they put us on a six, even if they think we are strong, are they ever folding an overpair or flush draw? No. They will call.

If we minraise and they call Now the pot is a nice juicy $280-ish dollars leaving us $135-ish behind . thus, come turn, we can just go ahead and go all-in and they will have to call with 100% of their draws because the pot will be so big. They came to gamble. They already put $82 into the pot, what's another $100-ish more for the chance to win a $600+ pot? (pot will be that big once they call...)

When we flop the world it's almost instinctive that we want to slow play and go into passive passive trappy trappy mode...

Don't.

Fight it. Keep your wits about you and recognize when you have the opportunity to build the pot. Doesn't matter if you bet $5, just for the love of god bet SOMETHING. Give your villains a chance to make a mistake, to spazz out, to bluff, to sense weakness and shove... bet something on every street.

end rant
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Old 04-10-2014, 08:17 AM   #18
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

I think flop flat is fine.
I would have bet the turn small, maybe 40.
I would have bet river big, pot size.

Last edited by a12; 04-10-2014 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 04-10-2014, 08:29 AM   #19
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Are you first to act on the turn?

Think you have to bet it because its the last point where you can get value from flush draws before they miss the river.

If you raise the flop you can't really be bluffing given that someone is already all in
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Old 04-10-2014, 08:40 AM   #20
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Turn is a must bet when checked to. Because of awkward sized side pot 50ish. Can easily look like we're on a draw, regardless gets more money in because if a FD hits on the river, flush + paired board nobody's calling.

River bet again if checked to.

I think a flop raise would be OK, but on such a dry board I feel we will be folding out most hands.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:02 AM   #21
CallMeVernon
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashes to ashes View Post
overpairs ..? i would imagine the players have hands like medium pocket pairs here mainly.

also just flatting if someone has a flushdraw makes way more sense to me for the reasons i said in previous post.

i think your are arguing for raising for the wrong reasons. I dont dislike a min/r on the flop , i think flatting is much better, but the argument for a min/r on the flop should be --- villains likely have small pp's that may call one street but fold when any overcard peels the turn.. we dont want to allow a scare card to peel and kill our action , which seems to have happened.
If you believe this, all the more reason to raise the flop, then.

Basically, there is no hand that Villains can have that is more likely to give us big action on the turn than to call a flop raise. This is a must-raise on the flop.

Also, dgi laid it out as I would have too--forget about the need to be deceptive. This isn't about deception, it's about value. Not raising the flop misses value.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:34 AM   #22
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Quote:
Originally Posted by trucdouf View Post
....
I think a flop raise would be OK, but on such a dry board I feel we will be folding out most hands.
What hands can our villains have that bet $35, call $35, and then fold to an additional $35 when the action gets back to them and they are facing a $200+ pot?

All pocket pairs and all flush draws call a min raise on the flop and there is an X% chance someone spazzes out and shoves the flop because they will have two cards coming or because they put us on the flush draw...

Basically, there just are no hands in our villains' ranges that bet and call the flop bet and then subsequently fold to a min raise.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:42 AM   #23
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

I don't know if this is right or not, but I would have bombed the river. It never ceases to amaze me how often I get called.

In fact, I've found you are even more likely to get a call if you announce you have quads and advise villain not to call. Aside from the meta game implications, which are considerable, it is more than a little amusing to watch villain's head explode.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:52 AM   #24
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Please just raise the flop and gets spades to call
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Old 04-10-2014, 06:58 PM   #25
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Re: Maximising value with quads.. the bane of my existence

Basically I'm giving DGI cliffs here, but this is one of the biggest LLSNL statutes that I've learned from 2+2. It seems simple. You have to put money in to win big pots. When we're weak we're afraid that villains are strong. When we're strong we're afraid that villains are weak. They're range is the same. The only thing that changes is the subject of your fear. You're ridiculously strong. Get paid. It's the number one leak of bad players. They call too much. Give them a chance to call and stop being afraid of losing them.

Last edited by spikeraw22; 04-10-2014 at 07:00 PM. Reason: F my phone
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