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Old 08-20-2017, 05:34 PM   #1
yummyhumanbrains
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Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Villain sat down probably 30 mins ago. Seems like an ok touristy type. Not overly fishy. Sitting on 200.

Hero has been raising a fair bit pre. Imagine I'm seen as kind of loose/bluffy, but no clue what this guy thinks.


Hero picks up QTdd UTG+1. UTG real loose, stationy bad player limps. I make it 20 to isolate. Table has been passive pre and folding alot before the flop. Villain calls in SB, BB calls, station folds.

Flop QJ3cc (60)

Checks to me and I bet 40. Villain minraises to 80 and I call. Thoughts on this?

Turn Kc (140)

Villain goes allin for 110 or so. Seems like a clear fold.

More interested in flop. Can I ever check this? Seems like a straightforward bet. But flop minraise I'm calling as I put guy on a lot of draws. Almost thought QJ/KQ/AQ, but I don't think he has a set as he wants to push out draws. Maybe same reasoning for QJ also.
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:02 PM   #2
QuantumSurfer
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Min raise is usually nuttish. Fold turn.
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:05 PM   #3
paratrooper99
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

On this wet board, I would cbet larger with the plan of bet/folding the flop.

The board hits the callers range quite a bit so, a delayed cbet if checked to on the turn would likely be a better option.
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:30 PM   #4
XXX555666
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Honestly, don't know if I'm raising Q10ss UTG+1 all the time here. Kind of puts you in awkward situations. I think the hand is pretty standard. Definitely giving it up on the turn. I would say sure you can check SOME frequency of the time but I think a C-bet is standard. Checking on such a wet board lets draws get there for free and a lot of turn cards can be bad for you.
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:51 PM   #5
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Pre real bad, flop is a check
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:19 PM   #6
randomcards
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

I check flop behind quite a bit here.

Live against a rec I think you Q10 is often behind to the minraise. I probably fold there as well, although I think it is close. I would lean more towards a call/evaluate if villain was deeper, but villain's raise pretty much says he is willing to GII in this hand, and against said villain I don't want to pay off with Q10 here.
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Old 08-21-2017, 05:59 AM   #7
ChrisV
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Check and bet are both fine OTF. I lean slightly towards checking.

Muck the minraise, it's a good top pair or better more or less every time. The problem with just going "lol pot odds" and calling is that even if villain shows up with Q9 or something, he's probably jamming the turn and you can't call.
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Old 08-21-2017, 06:54 AM   #8
Sockclock
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Pre flop i am folding

Yes the player utg is playing real lose but i do not think Q10dd stacks up against his range very well

There is also the whole table behind to act.The table may be playing passive and folding alot but against there calling range pre when they do call KQ+ and all pocket pairs we dont play very well vs that range out of position

I understand the temptation to isolate and play alot of hands with the real loose guy but i think it is important to maintain discipline and wait for better spots.You have direct position on him so will have lots of opportunities to isolate him in postion with a wider range

As played on the flop i cbet bigger, $45

I want to charge all draws including AK which could be flatted here pre also

When i get min raised vs this type of player it usually means one of two things

- They have a decent top pair and are 'seeing where they are'

- Or they are at the top of their range and it means the nuts

I dont see people play flushdraws like this out of position

He isnt min raising with essentially half his stack with a draw

He should just be flatting here everytime with a draw

I think if he had a big draw he would jam or raise bigger

Its a fold for me on the flop
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:07 AM   #9
Sockclock
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Ive been thinking some more about this and i think we can check the flop back

Vs his range 22-QQ, AK,AQ,AJ,Ac10c,KQ,KJ,QJ i like checking better

Vs his pocket pairs we have him in bad shape but he folds to all cbets when doesent have a set
Vs his AQ,KQ,QJ we are crushed
Vs Ac10c we are behind
Vs AK and KJ we are in good shape and these hands might fold flop but call lots of turn bets

The limper range should be alot weaker and often will have alot of Ax hands which help with our equity vs these two players

I think its the most profitable to check the flop
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:42 AM   #10
Case2
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Can't evaluate preflop. I assume this is 1/2? What is effective stacksize with iso target?

At around 100bb, 10% is a pretty big chunk of our stack to put in pre in EP with a marginal hand. I think whether this is worth doing or not depends more on table behind us than the target. We need to be pretty confident our raise is going to get the respect it really doesn't deserve. And respect for raises isn't typically one of the hallmarks of LLSNL tables -- one of the reasons we like them so much.

I think we should fold the flop. V's are rarely playing back at us, so I'm not worried about our PFR percentage.

I think turn is a clear fold.

I don't like a flop check. We have two opponents and a wet board. Sometimes we have to give a free card to avoid other dangers. Not here. We can get value from any of several draws or the occasional weaker Q and betting is very unlikely to lead to a difficult commitment decision later in the hand. I think 2/3 pot is fine. We're looking for some value, not to blow V's off their hands or get stacks in. I'd put in another half pot or so OTT and take a showdown if called. River would be an easy fold if a V leads out with any real bet.
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:09 PM   #11
gobbledygeek
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

This is 1/3 NL, right?

I guess you know your table if a raise in EP is likely to thin the field, but there are far too many unknowns at my table for me to ever raise here. At passive loose tables I'm more for open limping these; at aggro loose tables, I open fold them now.

One of the problems with opening hands this weak this shortstacked (66bbs effective if we're playing 1/3 NL) is that we create very small SPRs with very mediocre TP hands, and at tight tables a preflop raise often limits the calling hands to ones that dominate us. And this is the case here. An SPR of 3 where stacks should go in by the turn. Is Villain on a draw? Or does he have a better TP (or better) that he's not folding? By the time we figure that out, all the chips have gone in. This is why I'd much rather keep the SPR skyhigh in these spots to give us lots of room postflop to find out what is going on before we commit stacks.

Anyways, I fold to the flop check/raise (we're committing stacks on a board that should kinda crush us, which means Villain is likely strong) and also fold when everything beats us on the turn. I really think the discussion point is preflop though.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:17 PM   #12
Dream Crusher
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Stop trying to build huge pots with marginal holdings. That starts with your 6.5x raise with QT.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:15 PM   #13
ChrisV
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Iso-raising with QT is perfectly fine but doing it from UTG+1 is not.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:59 AM   #14
mikko
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Re: Marginal Top Pair in Medium Pot

Somehow amazingly we have position in this hand.

Pre is a fold, With loose image you really need to be snug from utg and utg+1. (I always have super loose aggro image).

Unless table is super deep, then maybe we can try to see flop.

As played, betting and checking both options. Sizing is fine. Although I may go even smaller, 30-35.

Fairly easy fold to min-raise. Just are not doing well vs a raising range.

Think we are way better off calling jam raise than a min-raise.

Obviously fold on turn.

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