My image is solid, TAG.

CO is Very good LAG. Likes playing in position, and will iso wide vs this fish.

UTG+2 is a loose fish, pretty ABC. Raises pre mostly, occasionally limps w/ low pairs and scs

I am in the BB w/ A10

UTG calls $3, UTG + 2 raises $20, fold, fold, CO calls, fold, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG folds,

Flop ($100) Q 64
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $30, CO raises to $100, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds

Turn ($330) 2
Hero checks, CO checks

River ($330) 10
Hero checks, CO bets $125, Hero raises $425 and is all in.

3betting pre is okay, but I think my range beats CO anyway, and I want fish in the hand.

Flop I have enough dominating flushes that I think I am good calling, and fish will give me odds if he has a Q (i.e. he will come along and never raise).

My plan was to c/shove the turn or river. CO doesn't have QQ or else he 3bets the fish pre. I think combo wise I have enough FE and some redraws on turn. At river, this seems pretty standard.

? not sure i would call this play on this river standard.... on the flop or turn maybe, but river....?

how on earth is river standard? either c/c or c/f. what does c/shoving accomplish? do you think he´d fold a queen? do you think he bets JJ or worse? either your Ahigh is good, or he is never folding any value hand he bets.

Sorry to the last two posters. the river was not a Q.

I shove because villain can't call with top pair. I am not polarized. He is.

Why can't V call with top pair? Your line looks like a missed FD.

How is UTG a fish? You say he usually comes in for a raise, is loose, plays ABC, and limps implied odds hands. That seems like a solid basic PF strat except for the looseness. So how is he a fish? How is he loose? Does he open to wide from EP/MP or play post flop loose? Or both?

Your action or pot size OTF doesn't add up. You list 4 players in the hand for $20, yet the pot is listed as $100 OTF.

Ahh... So UTG+1 is in the hand too. 5 players OTF. How is he playing? Have you seen him donk before?


OTF I'm likely just leading out here. If I was playing shorter I like a CRAI, but I'm still fine with checking if you're going for a C/R and prepared to bomb all turns. But you didn't. I understand that there was a raise but it is from a LAG. You entered a big multiway pot from OOP with A10. Hopefully this would be a fold for you if it wasn't suited, but if you're gonna play hands like this then you really need to push your draws and take advantage of FE to make them profitable.

As played, I'm still C/Ring OTF to take advantage of our solid image. After you just flat I'm ok with checking turn. OTR your raise makes zero sense unless you think this V thinks you're so nitty that he'll fold all 1 pair hands. I don't like it. In general, your river raise gets bluffs to fold and calls from better hands.

If I'm shoving in this hand, I'm doing it on the flop. If I'm not shoving the flop, I'm folding.

Villain is not polarize here. He raised a 1/3rd pot donk bet in a 5 way pot and then checked the turn. Followed by a less than half pot river bet. This looks like a value line to me. V probably just got scared of your cold call OTT so he checked it back. Looks like he shows up with QJ, a combo draw (there's not many of them), or--more specifically--a Q and a FD a lot here.

The problem is, though, what hand is scared of the cold call enough to check back the turn, but not the river? I don't think this is Qx. Why would someone with top pair who's worried about what a cold-caller might have not just check, take a free showdown, and find out? The only reason would be if he's betting specifically to induce a bluff. In which case obviously we should not shove the river.

Honestly, this looks a lot like a busted flush draw trying to bluff us off a bigger flush draw. I might call the river, but I think shoving doesn't fold out anything Villain bets for value.

Preflop: No mention of stack sizes. If stack sizes are decent, I too would call a raise and two callers with the NFD even OOP.

Flop: Once again, knowing CO's stack size is a must. Getting 2.3 to 1 to draw to the NF. Question is, will CO put more money in the pot if the third diamond shows?

Turn: c/c works for me

River: Villian is offering a little over 3.5 to 1 to call. I didn't get this far to call with 2nd pair. Pretty sure villian has the queen. I fold.

It would be very helpful to see stack sizes for yourself and as many villians as possible. I didn't understand the river shove. It seemed like you were upset your flush didn't come in and just saw the ten helped you and spazzed. The decision to commit would have made more sense on a semi bluff before the river.

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Right i mean this is a huge bet albeit we don't know stack sizes because they werent included, but your all in decision should be made earlier in the hand

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This exactly.

C/R shoving this flop behind CO's raise of UTG+1 takes this pot down more often than not IMO. And when called you have at least 9 outs twice, and probably 12 (meaning you're most likely no worse than a 40/60 dog). It's a massively +EV play in this spot and absent a specific read that I'm up against a set, I'm doing it 90% of the time.

Against a LAG, there's a decent chance we get it in ahead here if we shove the flop.

don't hate the shove on the flop, but the weak flop bet by the fish (I know he is a fish because he stations up on TP a bit too much, he doesn't understand how to get thin value, etc, etc - I have played with him before) is what induced the CO to raise. I think CO is trying to ISO, maybe with QX, or maybe to take the pot down on a later street.

The reason for the river c/shove is because he really either has a busted FD (which I beat by calling anyway) or top pair. I don't think a very good player is going to be like, "well, I bet my TP, and the opponent who flatted my 3bet, then checked, probably to crai on the turn, has now c-shoved the river. That sure looks like a busted FD to me." I think he is probably thinking "Holy ****, this guy flats a bet and raise on the flop, and then checks the turn OOP - maybe he has a set and is trying to get me to commit my FD on the turn, and now he c/shoves the flop. Fawk, I'm not calling that with my QK."

I mean, he never has a set here. I do. He can easily have a weak Q or maybe even some JJ that is betting for weak value, Q10, etc.

How many times do any of run into someone capable of check/shoving their entire stack on a busted FD?

See that is cool and all, but if we think he is betting a FD enough to make this profitable, then what's our edge in getting him to fold his weaker FD out? I know being OOP kind of makes it more appealing, but if we go with our read that he either has a weak FD, a set, or TP, then vs the first two we really don't want to be shoving. Against the third, we might be able to get him off of it on the turn / river anyway.

This is a good player. Not someone we are just going to run over through aggression. our lines need to be creative to get that money

Because he won't have a weaker FD much of the time, and by getting his better hand to fold, we earn far more equity than we lose by incorrectly running over his weaker draws.

And let's not forget that some percentage of the time you call, the fish will be holding something like A6s or 75, will flat behind you both, turn some ridiculous straight / trips, and take a chunk or all of your stack.

FE plus outs make this a no-brainer shove IMO.

Not sure why he will fold TP type hand on flop and not on river. And I think he has enough weaker FDs for that to be concern in how we play the hand.

We are never losing our stack to UTG with this hand, so that is not really a concern, especially since UTG is never betting again with a draw unless he hits.

yeah, maybe if I led out. c/shove doesn't scream busted FD at 3/5.

This guy value bets thinly. I play this way with some sets.

You overcalled the flop raise and then checked the turn, then checked the river. Looks like missed FD to me. Why would you play a set that way OOP on a FD board?

If I had a set, I might overcall to keep the fish priced in. Villain is aggressive, so I might c/raise the turn in order to keep his bluffs in, rather than folding him out by leading. I don't always play my sets fast against a thinking villain, especially when his range also consists of top pair type hands which he may fold once he sees me overcall a raise. I think a river lead looks more like a busted FD, and against worse players that play often, I think a river lead is actually kind of good with a set, because they may snap it off with a bunch of top pairs. Against this particular villain, he will v-bet/fold a ton of his top pair range, and I think he never has the nuts. I might play a QK+ this way, especially against a weak UTG+1 that I want to get heads up with and who can't fold top pair with a draw out there against an aggressive opponent. By checking turn, I pick up a load of value on the river, and with a weaker FD, I might bet turn and shove any river vs an opponent like myself.

this might be too much leveling at this point to even make sense discussing the hand.

Might be??

When you're talking about how you would play the hand in an attempt to justify a bluff (as opposed to how your opponent thinks you would play), you may have just found a leak. (That's especially true if the reason you think it works as a bluff is because you misplay your value hands.)

So how do you play AQ in villain's spot for max value?

Either check behind on the river or bet/call. I would not bet/fold any hand your AT can't beat. Much more importantly, I would never expect a LAG to bet/fold on the river with any hand he was betting for value. He'd level himself into a call.

I sort of expect that you got a fold in this hand, and if you did, I expect that that's because he folded a worse hand than yours, not Qx.

By the way, I'm not saying you played your hand poorly up to the river. I just think calling is way better than shoving. (EDIT: Yes, I know I said I would shove the flop. But I think the flop decision could go either way. I'd shove, but I can see calling too. On the river, though, I think calling is a lot better than shoving.)

You would give a free card to a wet board like that with a set? Sets would lead the turn after a cold call on the flop. I can see giving one free card, but not 2 streets of free cards with a set. And checking again on the river with a set? It would just be the weirdest way to play the hand.

With the way the hand is played, you're basically repping only the nuts or a bluff. If I were the villain I'd call.