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Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Making Quads over 460 BB Deep

03-27-2021 , 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore
Calling the 3bet is horrible, this hand is a perfect example of why.

Villain outplayed you this hand big-time.
That doesn't mean calling the 3 bet was bad. That just means H played it bad.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
03-27-2021 , 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by expectastorm
Villain is a very solid reg, boarding on rock
Given this description, the flop check-back sounds like pot control to me and makes perfect sense. Still, I suppose it's hard for Hero to not check.

In short, though you won a nice pot, I agree that he outplayed you, in that he lost the minimum with Kings full (he almost certainly had AK, or maybe KQs. Suggesting AA, or QQ is just ridiculous!).

Interesting hand discussion - including more than a little "wrong-think" that was nicely corrected.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
03-27-2021 , 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nippleman
That doesn't mean calling the 3 bet was bad. That just means H played it bad.
Unless the villain is an absolute drooler, I don't see any way calling this 3bet oop can possibly be profitable. If he made it 80, okay. But the size is just so big it's silly. It's a snap lol fold at this size.

Seriously where are you drawing the line calling 3bets oop? Can he make it 160? 180? Calling 137 here, IMO, means you're the fish at the table.

On this KT9 flop, you can't even feel good about your hand. If you get it all in here you probably have 2 outs. Give him the 25 dollars, next hand.

Villain played his AK extremely well, especially with fish that call silly size 3bets oop. Respect to villain for owning you.

Last edited by Carnivore; 03-27-2021 at 06:06 PM.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
03-28-2021 , 04:21 AM
1) PF is fine (I don't know that I would go $25, maybe more like $18-$20). V1's 3-B to $137 from your RFI of $25 is troubling; it more than 5X (don't know if this was intentional or as you explained, random due to his chip stacking?). It is true that folding is boring, but folding here is actually the more prudent choice given all factors (opponent tendencies, stack sizes, positions, etc.) It is just about 10% of the starting stack and you should be looking to get a final pot size of at least about 6-8X times the bet to get a good return on your pair when set mining (you'll miss so many other times, and forced to c/f a lot of flops). Even with a low flop you might not really know if you're ahead or behind (room for a lot of reverse implied odds) as well as doomed by over cards. Smaller RFI might decrease 3-B sizing and limit the initial bloating.

2) Since you elected to flat, both you and your opponents have narrowed each other's ranges. The flop is good for you now, but can get very bad for you in a hurry. If V1 has something like QQ or JJ and checks back flop but hits either straight or set on the turn, it makes betting extremely hard for you but a little easier for V1 IP. If board then pairs on river anything other than giving you quads, you're still only holding bottom boat which can be no good in a lot of different ways. In the event V1 has KK or AA, I highly doubt he's checking back the flop. High likeliness he's got AKo, AKs, or even AQs (it's the very bottom of 3-B range, discounting AQo or KQo or KQs as these would just be torching $$$ with other's left to act behind). AQ would be most likely AQs hand to be able to continue this flop with enough equity vs. most of Hero's range, AQ is only other consideration.

3) 4-B PF makes post flop play extremely difficult, especially OOP if you're called. Ideally you're flopping top set or middle set on a Jx or Tx high flop with the third card lower than 5 board vs. over pair (especially if suited connector combos are in V1's 3-B range?). Again, low flop offers a lot of reverse implied odds opportunities.

4) Actual flop is tough. This is one of the few times I am ok with donk leading small due to actual strength of our hand and this board. The $75 or $100 is a fine size. If V1 folds, so be it, but the sizing can get a lot of calls by hands we're beating. In the event of a raise on the flop, I'm probably flatting it and betting big and/or jamming turn (depending on raise size and SPR) at that point with any safe card. If we're coolered by KK or TT there's nothing we can do. If V1 folds to turn jam still ok with pot size from PF and flop action. And if V1 is willing to call off when behind, then at least we're making him pay the max price (equity scenarios vary based on raise size, but at worse for us it might be close (60 us/40 V1) and at best we're way ahead. As mentioned earlier, there's a lot of bad turn cards, especially any Broadway cards and why give V1 a free chance to catch-up. If a free turn card now puts us behind, and we have to c/c a bet hoping to fill-up on the river but not really ever confident enough about betting bottom boat for value as there's a good chance of reverse implied odds.

5) The actual turn is good (pairing the K or T works) as it makes that card's set even less likely. If V1 coolers with TT over 99 that's just bad luck (if TT is in V1's PF 3-B range IP?). But again an A or T on the river can now counterfeit our hand. Agree with all other's about sizing up on turn.

6) If turns get pot to about $550-600 leaving you with about $1000 remaining behind, then when you make quads a value bet size of around $400-450 of your remaining stack should get a call from any K most likely AK (unlikely that V1 3-B with KT). Don't see scenario where shove can really get a call from second best hand, but have exceeded goal regarding final pot size relative to calling PF 3-B with 99 OOP.

A last minor side note: if your venue has any PSJs like high hand or bad beat jackpot where the losing share would be greater than >$3800 and quad-9s qualifies, then I would gleefully great any raise on the river!

Last edited by sam7595; 03-28-2021 at 04:36 AM.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
03-28-2021 , 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKon
Given this description, the flop check-back sounds like pot control to me and makes perfect sense. Still, I suppose it's hard for Hero to not check.

In short, though you won a nice pot, I agree that he outplayed you, in that he lost the minimum with Kings full (he almost certainly had AK, or maybe KQs. Suggesting AA, or QQ is just ridiculous!).

Interesting hand discussion - including more than a little "wrong-think" that was nicely corrected.
Effective stack size at the beginning of hand is 1400. 3bet is to 135. Effective stack size is 1265. Pot is 280ish. SPR is at 4.6. SPR of 4 is great for top pairs.

3bettor should be betting 100% of his range in this spot. That's especially true of AK which has a decent number of turns it doesn't want to see. Check with top set, not with ****ing top pair. Why are we making things complicated?
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
03-28-2021 , 05:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore
Unless the villain is an absolute drooler, I don't see any way calling this 3bet oop can possibly be profitable. If he made it 80, okay. But the size is just so big it's silly. It's a snap lol fold at this size.

Seriously where are you drawing the line calling 3bets oop? Can he make it 160? 180? Calling 137 here, IMO, means you're the fish at the table.

On this KT9 flop, you can't even feel good about your hand. If you get it all in here you probably have 2 outs. Give him the 25 dollars, next hand.

Villain played his AK extremely well, especially with fish that call silly size 3bets oop. Respect to villain for owning you.
You re calling a bet that represents 8% of your stack in order to setmine vs a range that's more likely to stack off than let's say a lagtard's range. 99 is strong enough to win without hitting a set too.

But let's say it's a losing play. It it more of a losing play than folding? Because when you fold you re losing 830BB/100.

I bet we can lose less than 830BB/100 when we call.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
03-28-2021 , 06:18 AM
You're check/folding on 80percent or more of flops. You're out of position. Even the times you hit a set, you might not get paid, and you might be set over setted. If this flop came 24J, we're check folding and giving his whiffed AK 112 extra dollars? We hit an absolute dream board and we didn't even get close to getting paid off adequately.

85 is about the max I think we can consider calling here. And even then I think it's close. Maybe 80 or 75. 137 is a joke.

For those who advocate calling the 137, I really want to know what 3bet size you're folding to here. 160? 180? What's the limit?

I get it, 99 are pretty. But you're OOP and crushed by a competent player making an absurdly oversized raise. This preflop call is silly.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
03-28-2021 , 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore
You're check/folding on 80percent or more of flops. You're out of position. Even the times you hit a set, you might not get paid, and you might be set over setted. If this flop came 24J, we're check folding and giving his whiffed AK 112 extra dollars? We hit an absolute dream board and we didn't even get close to getting paid off adequately.

85 is about the max I think we can consider calling here. And even then I think it's close. Maybe 80 or 75. 137 is a joke.

For those who advocate calling the 137, I really want to know what 3bet size you're folding to here. 160? 180? What's the limit?

I get it, 99 are pretty. But you're OOP and crushed by a competent player making an absurdly oversized raise. This preflop call is silly.
I agree, V1 sizing is odd - don't know if it was intentional or inadvertent as OP described V1 chip fiddling habits. $100 would (normally) be the uppermost limit even at this depth. At shallower depths, $137 is an easy fold.

But the 'extra' $37 puts this right into 'gambling' territory, especially at these depths; yes something like 600+ BBs deep could make this play a little more correctly potentially profitable, but it is hard to play completely perfect and this is one occasions where I can understand OP making a slightly 'generous' gamble as long as he's not making this a habit.

Anything more than the $137 is a definite fold with 99.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
03-29-2021 , 08:53 PM
What were results? Did we confirm villain had AK?
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
03-30-2021 , 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
What were results? Did we confirm villain had AK?
Villains comment "If you have KT, it's good" makes a solid case he had a K. Given the description and the action, it was AK(80%), KQs(20%).

But no, the OP never said.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
04-02-2021 , 12:56 PM
What's his range. AA, KK, QQ, 1010,AK, AQ, AJs, KQ, QJ, J10s and its Texas so K10 and K9 with the latters being less likely?

With flop of Kh10d9d

He'd at least call a bet on the flop with AA,KK,QQ,1010,AK,AQd,AJd,KQ,QJ. KK and 1010 have you destroyed, it's a coin flip with QJ. You destroy everything else. If you want to get a stack in, you need to build that pot. You also need to figure out what hands you're targeting.

You bet the flop, if he doesn't raise, you likely have him and have him in a hand that it is hard for him to fold.

Picture flop, bet $90, he calls. Pot is $460 or so. Dream king hits. His AK,KQ,KJ,K10,K9 and QJ will continue particularly if they're suited. 1010 and KK has you destroyed but way fewer combos. At that, point, you can really polarize. Bet $350, he calls or raises. if he calls, dream river gives Ak,KQ,KJ,K10,K9 a boat. You shove and get called.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
04-03-2021 , 12:23 PM
Fold pre

As played:
Check flop
Bet turn 375
All in OTR
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote
04-03-2021 , 07:48 PM
Preflop is a fold.
Turn, bet much bigger, like 200-300.
River check, planning to check/raise all in. This will work because Villain will always value bet a K on the river and will not fold to our x/r. So check river is the best line, we maximize from his value and any air he might show up with (though, I don’t see how he can have air). With river check we lose some value from AA that might call a reasonable bet on the river, but will always check back if checked to. But I’d rather maximize against AK and play for stacks, despite sometimes missing value from AA.

Also, we aren’t 460BB. Straddle is the effective Big Blind, so we’re only 230BB in actuality.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 04-03-2021 at 08:03 PM.
Making Quads over 460 BB Deep Quote

      
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