1/3 NL
Villain (cut off)Fish really likes one pair- $200

Hero (UTG+1)- $300 KQ

Action opens w/ the hero opening to $12

End up getting 4 callers

Flop 10JQ

I felt like a check raise would be extremely strong play with me have a back door club draw and opened ended straight draw.

I checked hoping to induce someone that got a piece. He bets $15 the button calls and I raise to $60 the cutoff calls and button folds

Turn 6

Do I shut it down or stick it in?

Bet the flop

Check raise on the flop is horrible. If you are going to check here, then you should be calling a bet, not raising.

Any turn card that's not a A, Q or 9 is going to put you in this exact situation. A King is going to suck also. So 80%+ you're going to be in this spot and you obviously dont know what to do in this spot. Thats why you dont check raise this flop.

What do you think continues vs a check raise op?

I don't hate a flop check against four opponents. TPGK looks very marginal on that board 5-way. I'd call the weak bet and hope to see another card for cheap. Nines, aces, and clubs all improve your situation. I'm not looking to play a big pot on the flop.

As played, you're well behind villains bet/call range. The 6 changes nothing. Very few hands in villain's range call the flop only to fold the turn. Check and hope for a check back.

I'm not sure why we flop TPGK + SD and turn it into a bluff. You realize that's what your CR does right?

Alongside the advice that since the majority of turn cards are going to put you in this spot you should probably think about what you're going to do in this spot before you get here.

The read on the villain is that he likes 1 pair hands. Use that as justification to stick it in and hope that you lose so you'll take it as a lesson to not take this line in the future.

Its a tough spot and very hard to tell what to do. Villain could easily have a pair and draw also with his pair being lower. KJ/KT/J9/T9 for example. I shove is correct against those and some other hands. But a shove is terrible against other hands.

These hands all check back, no? Turn bets should all be two pair+

Sure, they should check back if hero checks. The question is will they call a big bet? Lots of fish will never fold a pair and draw.

We should never be in this spot though. Flop check raise is bad.

We all agree that a flop C/R is bad here, so let's discuss what would be best instead.

Do you like leading the flop into four players? If you lead, what is your sizing, and what is your plan on the turn?

If you check the flop with the intention of calling, are you check calling this turn as well?

I check flop because I dont want to bet and get raised and a free card is not bad if it checks thru. I check/call flop. If it was still HU on the turn Im check/calling again.

If you don't bet the flop with your monster hand of OE+TP+one over+backdoor flush you are not gonna make it NL. Playing with fear is the equivalent of weak play.

If you get an Ace or 9 on the turn you not gonna get any action whatsoever unless dudes have a K. The way you play it looks to me that you are calling the flop just to try to make your draw. My advise is to have the money already in the pot so you don't have to worry on getting paid.

Yes, bet the flop for some serious money and if you get raised, move it in the middle of the LOL felt.

A

This is really bad advice. Bet/3bet flop is really overplaying your hand. You have about 30-35% equity against villain's flop raising range, and almost no fold equity.

Checking is much better, as it allows us to bluff catch, we are able to realize our equity in the pot, and it protects our flop checking range.

This too often checks through - start by betting 30

I would just open limp. Our hand plays fine multiway so we're cool with seeing a multiway limped pot where we can ~nutmine / attempt to play a small pot with TP against dominated hands. I really hate the raise. It's small so it's not going to thin the field (and being first to act we have no clue how large it has to be since we don't know who / how many are interested in their hand), so now we just build a bloated pot OOP and will create a small SPR where we'll have a difficult spot with TP.

This board has most likely smashed people, who can easily have straights / two pair / pair + draw. Overall, even though we have TP with an OESD (that has no IO), I think we have a fairly mediorce hand here. I would probably check/evaluate. I hate the idea of check/raising cuz too many hands smash this board that are never folding. I would just call the small bet, noting that we could easily be the ones on the draw and we don't fear it.

As played, we got a little lucky in that we got it HU against a fish who likes one pair, so he probably just has a pair + draw. At this point we've only got a portion of a PSB left, so easy shove.

I think we overestimated the value of our hand both preflop and postflop, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

On some boards, TP + OESD + one over + backdoor flush draw is a strong hand. This ain't that board, imo.

Our raise preflop has likely limited our opponents hand ranges to some that absolutely destroy this flop.

GimoG

So? We very well may be lucky if it does.

We have initiative and value bets on this flop and stand to lose both by checking, in addition to some amount of visibility on all ranges.

What hands are you getting 3 streets of value from?

It's not a matter of getting 3 streets of value, it's to get value from Kx/9x on the flop & brick turns.

I'd want to have a better sense of Villains' ranges before deciding to cbet, but if they're typical 1/3 players who can show up with K5s here, it's criminal not to cbet for value.

Let's start with 1 street.

Probably the wrong question. Should have asked if betting has a higher ev than checking. I think checking probably has higher ev, but I could be wrong. It's probably not a huge difference either way. Having the backdoor club draw might push it over to being a bet. There are 4 other players in the pot though. I think it's close either way.

If you only play your hands based on percentages or the equity you not gonna make it. You need beside the 30-35% equity to add the phantom "outs" and stealing like a thief, like a LOL .. crook PLUS got to lure opponent to pay you off when you got monsters. In live, LLNL games, you win money by doubling up or busting people.

There are some sophisticated plays in Hold’em that you must know how to set them up against suckers. Else, you not gonna win.

A

Some real pearls of wisdom here. Real gems.