I miss so much value when I'm involved in a pot. I'm not sure how often I would be getting called, but let me give a few examples of hands where I should have bet and didn't. Feel free to flame away on all hands ON THE RIVER.

Hand 1

Hero has TJ, flops top pair on a J63 board with two clubs. It's checked to me and I bet the flop. One caller. Turn is a 2c. Straight gets there, flush gets there. He checks. I check back. River is a blank. He checks. If he had it, he'd bet here not go for the check/raise. I should bet. I check. He has a weaker TP.

Hand 2
Hero raises QJ suited in LP to $15 at a $1/$2 game. 3 callers. Flop is 985. Checks around. Turn is a J. Checks around to me. I bet $30. A little small, but just kind of feeling this out. Two callers. River is a 2. Checks to me. BET GOD DAMNIT. Instead, I just scoop the pot. Probably wasn't getting called here as both were on draws.

These are just two examples of hands that I've played lately. But they happen frequently (at least that I'm starting to recognize) and it's a part of my game where I want to improve tremendously.

Let's say I bet $35 on the river in hand 1 and get called. I've just won 17 BBs that will significantly improve my win rate. Bet $45 on the river and get called by worse in Hand 2, that's 22 BBs.

So this is a huge leak in my game that I've decided needs attention.

I'll disagree.

If you change, your biggest leak is going to become over valuing TP. In hand one, he's never calling with worse than you have. It is a bad play as you know, but lots of players love the c/r on the river with a big hand. As you noted in hand two, the draws are never calling the river.

Where people lose value is in not betting big when they have the nuts or near nuts multi-way. LLSNL players don't have threshold decision trees on the river. If they are calling a 1/2 PSB on the river, they aren't 1/2 as likely to call a PSB. Even if you get some folds, you'll win more. This even becomes more important on earlier streets where you can trap your opponents in thinking, "I'm pot committed, I have to call."

Buy in for less than table max
Ask how much badbeat jackpot is
Act out of turn


I know it's not much of an answer...I also wanna read some 2+2ers opinions

This is somewhat true. In addition to missing value, smaller bets sometimes level the villain into thinking "he wants me to call" whereas bigger bets might mean "he wants me to fold" and, in some spots, a larger river bet might actually have a higher calling frequency.

@Ibelieveinkolb/kelly
Thin value betting can't be a "big" leak since, by definition, those are marginal +EV spots. Sure, you might be able to improve, but don't be too stressed about it. I can guarantee you have much bigger leaks in your game somewhere else.

I think checking back in both these spots isnt terrible

Read bart hansons articles especially the ones on thin value. The hands u posted weren't really bad, hand 1 is a pretty standard check unless up against a total calling station. Hand 2 is pretty close, if u do bet u have to bet really small like 30-45.

What helped me a lot was to think of what the swing hand is.

Think what hands beat me (that make sense) how many combos is that...

Then think what hand has to call me for me to have a higher number of combos that I beat.

The good news is you never have to be worried about being c/r bluffed nobody does that at 1-2...so if more combos call you that you beat...easy bet.

It may take some practice and you will have to make assumptions...(they don't slow play 2 pair + on the turn, or some such). and sure you will be wrong some % but your game will improve a huge amount.

I think where a lot of us miss that value is when there's been a street that checked through. When draws miss and there's been no action on flop/turn I've found that ill get looked up a lot by worse than top pair because they can't believe I'd ever check too pair. I've been called by ace high a few times because I obviously would have bet with top pair. When its obvious that nothing worse will call betting is a mistake as Venice pointed out, but I think we really underestimate river calling ranges when we've shown some hint if pot control.

Yes. You are missing value. Just bet/fold the river. You're not getting check raise bluffed and they will call with worse.
Especially hand 2. Bet $50; a lot of their calling ranges are combo draws that include weaker pairs. JT,T9, T8 are all possible hands that likely will call a bet on the river because the pot is so big.
They will hope you have AK and call.

i'm a firm believer in going to thin value against many opponents. you aren't going to be exploited, so when you are looking to get value from the bottom of their ranges, you can bet an amount you think will get called without fearing a c/r due to a sizing tell.

the size of the pot otr makes it the most important street since this is where the most value can be attained. for this reason, i think its important to sometimes put yourself in marginal ev spots where you may value own yourself if you think you can successfully get value from worse. the way the action goes in the two hands played, I can find a smallish 1/2 psb or slightly larger in both. don't be a showdown monkey.

the reason you can get looked up light on dangerous boards is bc most opponents don't think you are betting with anything less than a strong made hand or a bluff, so betting tpgk on a wet board can often get looked up by worse thinking you are trying to steal.

if you never value-town yourself, you're doing it wrong.

both hands should be bet on the river. Hand 1 is close, but it's still a bet. Hand 2 is a clear bet/fold.

The two biggest leaks for llsnl players: calling too much preflop, and double barrel frequency. Exploit it, gauge it, stop calling preflop and start doubling all good flop/turn textures. Create lines to exploit the two biggest leaks, from all aspects So many different things you can do vs these idiots.

This so much.

I value own myself a fair amount but its more than compensated for by the times I get river value with less than tptk. You have to be able to bet/fold tho. You only need to be good more than 1/2 the time when called for it to be profitable.

Also when players see you betting thin OTR they tend to pay you later on your bigger hands and they tend to look you up lighter in IME.

At low stakes There is almost no danger of getting Chk raised off your hand. I can count on one hand the players capable of Chk raise bluffing the river. So it's an EZ bet fold.

That said when under rolled I think it's best to stick w/ fat value.

Bet/fold is one of the best weapons in llsnl. Players tend to play the turn and river very straightforward, you can comfortably fold when raised on the river, as they're rarely raising with worse, and will call you down with surprising weak holdings, especially when you've let a street check thru, which I often do with tp. You're certainly missing value by not betting safe rivers in these spots.

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Yeah, I could have saved money Friday night if I had bet/folded the river.

I have KK. Make it $15 pre. One caller. Flop is T65 rainbow. I bet $20 ... Call. Turn 5. I bet $35. Call. River 2, putting runner/runner clubs out there. I bet $50. Woman makes it $125. Can't think of a hand I beat, but I freaking called anway because 'OMG, I have KK!!!!' She has 56o. I even said as I put the extra $75 in 'I don't think there's any way I'm good.'

I'm having a hard time thinking of a time I've even been raised on the river. I not only have no fear of being bluff raised, but I have virtually no fear of being raised at all on the river. If they raise, then I'm going away.

Those are definitely bet/fold situations. You will get lots of calls by worse. You are giving your biggest asset away. Position

Yes you will lose a few times too.

The games I play in. Check/raise bluff (on river). Is non existent. Maybe once every 5 sessions. Problem is most players thin value bet river then call raises on river. That is way worse leak. So if you can't fold then check back.

Hand 1 you gotta give preflop details. If there is no raise it is a bet on flop/turn/river imo. "The Straight got there". One hand combination getting there doesn't justify slowing down on this turn, you are losing value and not balancing against your bluffs. (If you raised this preflop and barreled 2 tone flop and get called, and then a brick 2 comes on 4, you would bluff, so value bet)

Hand 2- You did nothing wrong for 1/2. But at higher levels, betting as small as $30 on that turn will get exploited. It looks like an obvious "feeler" bet. Me no like feeler bets.