So, maybe this is pretty basic to a lot of you but it is something I've been thinking about and struggling with at the table.

With regards to preflop raising ranges in LP, how do you guys adjust for the number of limpers in the hand prior to your action? Obviously, most players will increase the raise amount by some increment to account for them, but how do you actually adjust the range of hands you will play?

For example, lets say you are in the CO and have a hand like KJo or 88. If it is folded all the way around to you or maybe with one limper, for most of us this is a raise situation. However, what if there are 4 limpers in front of you, many of whom will limp/call any raise you might make as is so often the case in LLSNL games. Do you still raise? I'm not crazy about raising a hand like this when I know I'll be facing 3+ opponents post flop even with position. But limping or folding with position seems a bit weak.

I seem to find myself in this situation quite often and struggle with what to do. Does anyone have any thoughts? Thanks.

Why do you feel this way?

Obviously this is dependent on a number of table dynamics, so I can only say what I would typically do. Hands like you mentioned (medium pocket pairs and unsuited Broadway cards), I will limp behind as well. I will also widen my limping range when there are multiple limpers and I'm either in the CO or BTN. Hands I'm speaking of may include 910o or suited Kings.

I have not found a lot of success in punishing limpers with these moderate holdings in my 1-2 games. But that's just my style of play. I'm certain others will disagree and say it's a -EV approach. But I limp along with them, but I don't expand my limping range to include hands such as suited three gappers or Kx or Qx off.

And, yes, I'll do the obvious of upping my standard raise.

There isn't a hard and fast answer to this kind of question; it varies based on table dynamics and your own general style and your image at the moment. Even if someone gave you a hand chart of exactly what hands to raise after x limpers and to what amount from the CO or BTN, it wouldn't be terribly useful if you didn't understand the reasoning behind it and how to continue postflop.

In general, I'd raise KJo before I'd raise 88 (though I'd raise that a lot too, depending). Offsuit broadway hands mostly make good one pair hands that you want to have against 1, 2 at most opponents. In lower stakes games with limited fold equity most of the value in midpairs will come from making sets. I'm sure some people will argue that overlimping pps sucks because it makes it hard to get stacks in when you do flop a set, and I'm sure in some games that's true.

The fact that something "seems weak" is a terrible reason not to do it. You should be making your decisions based on rational, not emotional reasoning. I'm sure you can think of scenarios where overlimping (or folding) in the CO is clearly the best play...

I don't know and I shouldn't really care, which is why I'm asking the question. If I can come up with solid and +ev reasons for certain plays, then it no longer matters how or why it feels one way or another. At least in theory...

My thoughts on preflop are pretty simple: if a raise is going to have a difficult time narrowing the field to HU (or 3way at absolute worse) then we should probably not be raising. In LP we have lots of extra info that we don't have in EP, such as the amount of people already interested in seeing a flop and who those people are (i.e. loose versus tight). So with big hands (big pairs, AK, etc.) we'll have a decent idea of what type of raise we'll need to do to possibly narrow the field, setup a nice SPR, etc. And if things go sideways, well, at least we started with a big hand (which will often bail us out postflop).

When there are 0/1 limpers to me in LP, I can still raise fairly wide if the people behind me / blinds are tightish. But as soon as there are 3+ limpers to me, my range narrows pretty quickly. 2 limpers is sorta inbetween and dependent.

Anyways, with 4 limpers to me in the CO with KJo/88, I'm overlimping very happily and think anything else is fairly bad.

GcluelessNLnoobG

So often the case that they will call any raise? I don't buy it. Raise an amount like 50-100 and see how many players will call.

Edit: I'm not saying you should really raise to 100. I'm just saying that I don't buy the idea that they are calling as often as you say.

Agreed. The word "any" is not what I really meant there. But you will certainly see your fair share of limp/calls to most standard raises in LLSNL games.

If I raise with 4 limpers than I'm raising much bigger than my standard amount. With 88 I'd just call though (however I am more passive with 88 than others around here, and I think raising is okay). Not sure about KJ (depends on villains, possibly image, etc.).

If you just raise your standard amount then yeah you're likely getting a bunch of calls. I think that's okay if you have 88 but not the result I'd want with KJ.

I'd much rather have 88 in this spot than KJ. 88 is going to be profitable whether you call, raise a standard amount, or raise much bigger. And you will be in much easier spots after the flop.

This is very very good advice. I'll happily raise these hands if the table is prone to limp-folding. Otherwise, I'll overlimp IP.

All good stuff here ...

Pay very close attention to the 1st and 2nd limpers image .. then:

1) Narrow raising range so you dont get blown off your hand as often by a l/r.
2) Widen your limping range since you are 'getting odds' and have decent position
3) Increase your raise an amount you need to reduce calling odds and .. remember #1
4) Dont be afraid to fold weakly connected Flops often .. you are looking for home runs here, not singles, with your 'widened' range of potential holdings. Your opponents will remember that you didn't raise PF and give you less credit on boards that have cards that you would typically raise with .. Dont chase 2nd/3rd pair as often without good reason (opponent read, draw, great kicker .. et).
5) At the 'right' tables dont be afriad to hammer Flops if you are last to act or certainly Turns if the Flop checked through from any position. As long as you have 'shown' aggression with ATC, then you can safely take advantage of these spots. Know your range as seen by your opponents.

GL

^^^^

Point #4 is gold. In multiway pots, we're looking to smash / have a good draw, otherwise, we should probably just get out. Even folding TP is perfectly fine in a lot of spots once a limped pot goes very multiway.

Gbighomerunhittersalsotypicallyleadtheleagueinstri keoutsG

I'm pretty much never limping 88 or KJ in the CO.

Good advice so far. It's also important to pay lots of attention to see what kind of hands the players on your right are limping with. Their limping ranges can change whether you should limp behind or raise. If they're limping super wide like Kxs, raise often. If they're super passive and limping stuff like AK, I'd limp behind speculative hands and try to stack them when they hit TP.

I'm pretty much only raising those hands in the CO when I would be happy to get 3+ callers.

Yeah I agree with mostly everyone. Limp behind. One thing I like to do is widen my range to include suited connectors and one gappers.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using 2+2 Forums

Depends on how deep the stacks are and how passive the villains are I can go either way. If deeper and we've got a skill advantage versus the limpers I can see how we can raise this to fold the blinds, pick up dead money and rep a whole lot of hands if villains are fit-or-fold.

Wow Answer20's answer was amazing. Thanks for a great response.

Your last comment really depends on the table dynamics, take and what he villans limp calling ranges are. If I can get 2 or 3 callers and C bet profitably I can't see how that's worse than limping along. When we limp along how much money is going to rake? It seems like more of s raise or fold situation rather than a limp or raise.

Ya, to not consider raising those hands merely due to amount of limpers is leaving money on the table. For instance assuming 100bb eff @ 2/5 if the original limper is a rec & limping a huge bs range from any pos, and 4 others limp along.... Unless there is an omc in between that hasn't played a hand in several orbits, or my image is really weak, i am very likely making it $40-45 from the co w/kj or 88 and fistpump embracing the variance

Raising 77+ ATo+ A8s+ suited broadway and KJo+
Limping 22-66, A2-A7s, some Kxs, SCs/1 gappers and the other offsuit broadways

With a hand like KJo it's better to buy position and narrow the field to heads up or three way. When you flop top pair you're very likely to be ahead (I've seen these donks limp/call J4s lol). Even with a hand like 77 not only do you make a better SPR for getting stacks in with a set, if heads up in position you can try to sneak your way to a cheap showdown or even thin value a street or two on a run out like T44 2 5.

You think 88 in LP after 4 limpers is a raise versus fold situation?

I think there are arguments for raising big instead of overlimping (and some others in this thread are making them, although personally I don't find them compelling enough to outweigh overlimping, but that's fine). But I think most would agree that folding isn't even remotely one of our considerations.

Glimp>raise>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>there'sanotheroption ?G

Limping 88 in a multiway pot is fairly standard.

KJo is trickier, you are going to get in a lot more marginal spots on the flop. If you are committed and disciplined to only put more money in with a monster or nut draw, AND, narrowing the field with a decent raise is a dicey proposition, then a limp is ok.

But if table conditions allow it, and there aren't nits in EP who are likely to be limp calling hands like AJ & KQ, then I'd rather raise it and get it heads up or 3 way with initiative and position.

I was thinking more along the lines of KJ type hands opposed to the small to medium pairs. Even so I think raising is still greater than limping (never folding in this example). I want more value from my medium pocket pairs than just their set equity in a limped pot. Obv this depends on stack sizes as they need to be deeper in order for me to raise with 88. when we are IP with 77-99 it makes them mug easier to play post flop. I want to take a shot at being the aggressor and win a medium sized pot as oppossed to limping and winning a 5bb pot when we flop a set.

As to whether it's better to limp or fold hands like KJ etc I think rake plays a big factor. Not to mention the overall skill level needs to play a part in our decision as well as stack sizes of course. I'm assuming the average rake is going to make limping less optimal, again that's an assumption.

You and I play in different games if when you flop a set in a 6+ way limped pot typically means you just take down the pot on the flop uncontested.

G*shudders*,therearegameslikethis?G