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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 04-13-2014, 09:04 PM   #1
Flatbarrel
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Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

I have played about 50hrs of low limit live now and I have made some observations that have me second-guessing my strategy. I basically play similar to the way I do online in terms of bet-sizing and isolation raising. Limping rarely, super-tight in EP. All that jazz. Basically the villains are all have similar styles where they are on the passive end and don’t bet big enough given potsize. The unspoken consensus though seems to be $30-$35 on the river is perceived a ‘normal’ bet (into like $120) that will be called a lot. But as soon as you pass the $50 mark the bet is viewed as very big. Sort of irrespective of the street or pot-size.

I have noticed something that I’d like to illustrate by two hands (2/3NL).

V ($100) straddles $10 UTG. 5x call behind. I have AJx in CO. I raise to $65. They all make a lot of noise about how $65 is a lot and all fold.

V ($150) raise to $18 UTG, 2x call behind. I have AKx in CO. Raise to $65 again. All fold again.

So I’m thinking my raise sizes are appropriate to the pot, but given predictability of V’s, maybe I should raise to something that they consider ‘more callable’. Say $45 in both hands. I expect that will get me 100% calls all around. This way I’m looking at massive pots on the flop in both cases. And then just bet/bet or shove any good flop (A,J or K hi) or decent draws and check/fold crappy flops.

So the main question is should I reduce my raise sizes to match table expectations.

As a side note I am standing out like a sore thumb anyway at the moment. People see me as quite aggro and some are annoyed at the preflop 3bets I sometimes put in. Seems like they would be quite happy to call $40-$45 tho.

In summary, while I think my play style is ‘more correct’, slightly amending it to suit these kinds of tables may be wise. Your thoughts appreciated.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:01 PM   #2
venice10
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

You should size your raises to achieve your goals. If you want them to fold, bet to make them fold. If you want them to call, size them to get a call.

The key thing to keep in mind is that most people lose at poker. If you play like most people, you'll lose like most people. Playing different is going to get comments. Not that they know better, but what they are doing unconsciously is trying to get you to play like everyone else so you don't win either.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:30 PM   #3
johnny_on_the_spot
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Many if the people who play live would get destroyed at 5NL. They are just terribad. So adjust accordingly. You want 1-2 callers? Then start raising and and adjust until you find a number you get 1-2 callers
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:47 PM   #4
EfromPegTown
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

If they keep folding, raise more often. Print money.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:48 PM   #5
donkatruck
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

I think winning 20bb risk free with AJo (as in hand1) is a fairly desirable result.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:00 PM   #6
spikeraw22
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

Venice beat me to it. You need to know your purpose behind the raise. If you want everyone to fold then raise the amount they'll fold to. If you want everyone I call raise what they'll call.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:04 PM   #7
ryno19
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Yeah, I mean with an un made hand (especially like AJ in the first example) I would be thrilled to take it down right there.

I've played a LOT of low limit live (mostly 1/3) over the last 5 months (probably close to 650 hrs) and one thing I can definitely say I've noticed is that people get VERY irritated with Aggro styles mostly because they don't understand it, they think the game should stay "friendly". And one thing I've noticed when I play this style is that people CAN'T WAIT to "catch you" and they will eventually start to chase you down... Which isn't a bad thing, if you're able to recognize those situations and get out...I'm still working on that last part tho lol
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:08 PM   #8
slimshady1999
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

I wouldn't change what you did in those two hands since those are great results for your hand. You are picking up decent pots with blockers variance free. What more can you ask for? This is better than them calling and you having to play fit or fold. The reality is in the long run at llsnl the best players average 4bb profit with AK, AQ. So picking up those pots is huge for your hand
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:09 PM   #9
slimshady1999
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

If they're folding this often then bluff raise more pre especially. On the other hand you can reraise smaller with QQ+ to encourage loose calls and then you stack someone with one pair
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:16 PM   #10
Flatbarrel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimshady1999 View Post
I wouldn't change what you did in those two hands since those are great results for your hand. You are picking up decent pots with blockers variance free. What more can you ask for? This is better than them calling and you having to play fit or fold. The reality is in the long run at llsnl the best players average 4bb profit with AK, AQ. So picking up those pots is huge for your hand
Ok well thats exactly what im wondering, maybe fit or fold is better here because someone may br calling all the way with a dominated hand. I felt that perhaps thats better EV in these games. But consensus so far seems to be to stay the course here. Tnx so far, awaiting more opinions
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:20 PM   #11
daniel9861
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

I think your raise sizing is fine. If we go less than that we run the risk of having everyone call which is generally not what we want. If we have a lockdown hand like AA or KK then yeah maybe a bit smaller to make sure we get action because folding everyone out with those hands is a fairly big mistake.
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Old 04-14-2014, 03:22 AM   #12
Nocturnal_Joker
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

Looks good to me...taking down pot without seeing flop Is always good
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Old 04-14-2014, 11:09 AM   #13
ThaNEWPr0fess0r
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturnal_Joker View Post
Looks good to me...taking down pot without seeing flop Is always good
Not always... But I certainly don't mind winning pre-flop in the two cases the OP posted. Especially the AJ hand.

To the OP... Your raise sizes look fine to me. But as others have said, you can adjust to get what you want.
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Old 04-14-2014, 11:21 AM   #14
zoltan
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

Agreed with what most others have said. I'll add, though, that it's often the case in a game that you describe that raising smaller and getting callers, followed by a bet that is proportional to the pot but "big" in an absolute sense (e.g. $50 into $80) will serve the same purpose, i.e. close-to-variance-free money.
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Old 04-14-2014, 11:35 AM   #15
TeamKB
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimshady1999 View Post
I wouldn't change what you did in those two hands since those are great results for your hand. You are picking up decent pots with blockers variance free. What more can you ask for? This is better than them calling and you having to play fit or fold. The reality is in the long run at llsnl the best players average 4bb profit with AK, AQ. So picking up those pots is huge for your hand
im not disagreeing with what your conclusions are here. but the thought process, while good, isn't complete. "what more can you ask for?" the potential answer is.. "more money", "greater EV". having them call and playing postflop may be better under certain conditions/assumptions.

it also is totally irrelevant what the avg. profit is for a particular holding as to what the best decision is in this hand. if the avg. profit is 4bb with AK you are LOSING OUT if you make 20bb this hand... IF 25bb was out there for the taking!

i know this may be seen as nit-picking, i don't mean it to be. i honestly think all of the iterations aren't looked at very often.
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Old 04-14-2014, 11:42 AM   #16
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Re: Low stakes NL - general strategy contemplations

I personally love to raise big in live low stakes games, its gold when it comes to exploit the number 1 leak when it comes to live players: wants to "see a flop" with almost any kind of speculative hand. Well, thats ok but its gonna cost you some chips to do that If my villain is showing me the desire to call 4X raise with 4-2 or 6-3, i am gonna raise larger until i find out just how big of a raise he is willing to call with garbage and make it that much.

2- The two hand examples stated above in the OP its the start point of creating a dynamic i can abuse later on. The table will eventually get frustrated of not being able to see flops at the "proper" raise sizes they have used until you sat down and raised bigger. So at this point i will start to prepare myself: suddenly one of the other players will make a stand and call "this aggressive sheriff" down So if you for example pick up an ultra premium the next time-flopping a set or another huge hand-keep on raising as big as you did the last two hands with AJ/AK. By my experience its only a matter of time before one or several of your villains is reaching their breaking point of frustration and is gonna boil over. If you are able to take the pulse on this dynamic and kind of sense when one of them is gonna reach their breaking point it can be huge +EV later on in the session.

Last edited by Gilmour; 04-14-2014 at 12:05 PM.
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