1/3 NL 500 max buyin

($600) UTG is a showdown monkey callbox
($400) UTG+1 is the only solid player at the table
($450) BB (Hero) owned UTG in several small pots, so he switched seats to my left and is out for revenge. I'm viewed by UTG+1 as the only other non-****** at the table.


UTG straddles for $6, UTG+1 raises to $20, folds around to Hero in BB with JJ. Hero Calls (?) (fwiw, in this game the straddle has ultimate last action preflop and thus gets to act only after all other action is completed)

UTG+1 has raised limpers in position several times, but is also quite content limping alot of hands if he thinks he can get away with it, which he can at this table. I think he's playing snug in early position and his open here is fairly strong IMO.

Flop ($61) T 8 7
Hero needs a plan

i figure only a 9 or jack gives me a winner here as if he has like ace king im getting run off.

so i check since im first and hope he doesnt bet. maybe call if i read something into his bet i like.
perhaps folding pre was the right play.

I wouldn't fold pre. No reason why +1 can't raise with 88+, AJ+, KQ etc. At the very least we have set mining odds, plus we've been owning utg so we'd like to continue playing pots with him.

Check here and see what develops. +1 should be somewhat wary of this flop. He shouldn't be cbetting AK unless he has hearts. And I wish we had the J so that one of our set outs didn't complete a flush (even if it completes a straight).

I'd probably fold if he bets big but call if he bets 2/3 or less. Other option is to lead $40, but you'd have to be prepared to fire at least twice.

Definitely call pre. You are ahead of a decent chunk of his raising range. You have plenty of IO to setmine against one, potentially two, villains.

I'm check-calling most reasonable flop bets and folding if the action blows up.

Pre is fine.

Start flop by checking, generally check/calling.

I'm cool with just flatting preflop. If UTG+1 is solid, he really shouldn't be getting too out-of-line first to act preflop with the whole world left to react behind him. If we 3bet, he might reraise and we have to fold a premium hand with good potential. If we call, it will probably invite the fish 3way (which we're fine with, imo). Stacks are deepish (more ok with playing for stacks preflop if way shorter). It's not a fantastic spot as we're probably not going to win much off of UTG+1 even if we flop huge since he's solid and we're OOP, but hopefully we can make up for this against UTG.

SPR is 7ish. I think I would perhaps lean towards betting biggish and working towards committing against UTG on good runouts (although perhaps re-evaluating if he raises a street), and being done with the hand if UTG+1 gets involved (where the only hand he can continue with that isn't beating us is big heart overs).

ETA: Missed that we have a gutshot and perhaps set draw (which I don't want to be blown off of), so I certainly don't hate checking. Although I'm also not in love with giving a free card on this board when there is a decent chance we are ahead (my guess being UTG+1 gives everyone a free card if he has whiffed overs on this board).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Grunch.

I'm assuming straddle folded and it's HU between you and V.

I wouldn't mind a 3b here, folding to a 4b. We'll be OOP with a hand only about 50% likely to be an overpair on the flop facing a range having hands we crush and hands that crush us. Don't mind winning here or narrowing V's range while leaving ours uncapped.

Also don't mind calling, but then we're basically playing to set mine with a backup that maybe something else useful will flop and we can dance with V, unfortunately OOP.

As played, flop is good for us. V is ahead with QQ+, TT, 88, and 77 (if he raises that far down). He's behind with everything else, though some of those hands have good equity (heart overcards, 99 if he plays it this way, and some fudge factor hands such as suited connectors).

PFR is less likely to cbet a whiff into this wet board that hits preflop caller's range so hard, so if he bets it's shaded toward made hands with some good draws and whiffed overs thrown in.

I think leading this flop would be a mistake. It lets V dump his whiffs and continue only if we're beat or he has good equity. V can also raise with an overpair or occasionally as a bluff and put us to a tough decision.

So I'm checking this flop 100% of the time.

I'm usually (75%) calling a cbet and evaluating turn. About 25% I'll x/r. If I do that, I'm basically done with the hand if I don't improve except for perhaps calling a small river bet. I'll shade my x/r toward V's I've identified as aggro (more likely to cbet a whiff) or weak tight (more likely to get mubsy) and when I've got a good image (won some nice pots or otherwise seem to be running good*, not just haven't been involved and look tight).

I'll check nearly 100% of unimproved turns. If V bets again I'm starting to think about the exit strategy; most LLSNL V's don't bluff enough. I'm more likely to call against an aggro V.

If turn goes x/x, I'll either lead out river or x/c a reasonable bet.




*I don't care whether I'm running good, but others will tend to give my raises more respect when I have been.

Flop ($61) T 8 7
Hero checks, UTG bets $15, UTG+1 raises to $60, Hero ?

UTG is weak donking with all kinds of stuff here, but mainly flush draws and pair + draws. UTG+1 isn't bluffing (except maybe NFD), but I'm not sure how thin he is value raising here.

C/F feels weak on this flop, but it seems like it's going to be super difficult to realize our equity here...

As played, I'd fold. UTG+1 is simply taking UTG callbox to valuetown, and there's not a lot of worse hands than ours that can be doing that.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yeah, I'd just c/f. Totally agree with your assessment that UTG is wide and has lots of draws and pair + draws. I'll also add that while UTG is weak, UTG isn't folding, and even if he's is, well, "weak," he actually has quite a lot of equity. Given that he can have lots of draws, if we're behind UTG+1, the 9h and Jh may be dirty. And if someone has QJ (we block), no 9s is good (w/JT 9 chops). Agree UTG+1 probably isn't bluffing.

I'm thinking it's probably also a fold with the JhJx.

he got lucky utg lead out or he would have been caught in the middle. thats a big reason i dont like this hand preflop.
to call pre and then call on the flop to see how it develops is a recipe for disaster in most all spots as that strategy just doesnt cut it oop. you get too much money in pots you are not planning on playing to the end.

and 3 betting and folding to 4 bets may be viable on the net where players bet smaller in relation to the pot. live you are better off not getting in this spot very often. as you tend to not 3 bet very tight players and loose players are too loose to get away from a 4 bet usually unless very large.

Ray, with all due respect, folding preflop seems insane, if for no other reason than set value especially with the fish in the straddle. Are you really suggesting folding all pairs < QQ in this situation?

Call pre-flop is perfectly fine. To me JJ is a hand that can either be played like a small pair or a large pair. You chose to play it like a small pair which is fine, so let's stick with our plan and not change course on the flop.

OTF, I fold. I would have been willing to call a reasonable bet and evaluate turn against just the PFR, but your opportunity to do that got screwed up by the weak donk lead by UTG. There's just nothing about this situation that gives me any confidence in our hand or with the likelihood that we can get to showdown reasonably and have the best hand.

Best case scenario we're against a bluff raise from UTG+1 with missed overs, and UTG has some kind of SD/FD/pair+draw hand. This is still a pretty bad spot because if we don't improve OTT we hate most of the deck save for off-suit 5s through 2s. Plus we're stuck in between the donk lead and the raise from the PFR, and it's possible we get jammed on by UTG if we call and he has a big draw. Like I said, this is the BEST case scenario and obviously it's not very good. Worst case scenario is we're up against an overpair from UTG+1 and our 10s/Js are dirty because of UTGs hand. To me it's a pretty easy fold.

I can see how this board can look favorable when we're holding JJ, but it's the type of board that's going to cost us a lot of money much more often than it makes us money. You played JJ as a small pair PF, so continue to play it like a small pair OTF; You didn't hit a set, there's a bet and a raise in front of you, let it go.

so insane. you are calling 5% of what you can win off the action player if all goes perfect and he goes broke to you. and he hasnt even come in the pot yet. and what if he reraises after his straddle?
and after the flop you are going to be in between the likely bettor and the action player and oop with both of them.

there is a big difference in you coming in for 6 and 20 in this pot.

I don't understand how hero can possibly fold pre. A 'showdown monkey callbox' is still in the hand. Yes, hero doesn't have position. His card strength and theoretically skill edge should more than compensate for lack of position.

Folding JJ pre here advocates a strategy that pretty much requires hero to fold everything oop for any standard raise <100BB. Sure hero loses less in the long run. He also sacrifices a lot of profitable opportunities.

I folded obviously, but I do think the more interesting question is how to proceed if UTG checks and UTG+1 cbets...

Thoughts?

Calling oop pre is the reason people are getting confused I think you should 3! Pre you may just ISO the monkey and have the best hand most of the time anyways I never mind taking this down pre with jj if it folds judging by history there's going to be action no matter the flop so calling pre is just a losing strat I think reraise or fold pre depending on reads

With the callbox in the hand, I think if I check then I'm folding to UTG+1's bet... he really shouldn't be cbetting air on this board with callbox in the hand and we beat very few value hands (AT?).

Gstillthinksdonkingain'tbadG