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Losing 00 in 4 big hands - Implosion Losing 00 in 4 big hands - Implosion

01-07-2015 , 01:59 AM
I was feeling good - Up $500 on my first hand of 2/5 a set of Aces vs Queens. After 2 hours of playing, I managed to burn $1500 in 20minues. Here's the story hands, help me figure out if I should be beating myself up.

Hero has been playing for maybe 20 as he was recently moved to the main. Has $1000 in front of him with a number of other big stacks on the table as well. It's electronic (no dealer) so I can see that the average pot for the table is sitting around $125 (very juicy table). There are a few regs, a few passive reg fish, and only 1 short stack.

Hero in the BTN with KK
UTG+2 (decently good older guy, not such a bad player, not much history, not huge fish and possible small winner, pretty standard non-tricky TAG kinda weak) opens for $20, CO calls (passive fish), hero raises to $70, UTG calls, CO calls.
It's important to note that hero has been kinda aggressive so far maybe been involved in 7/25 pots but haven't shown down any hands or been involved in any big pots, and I don't believe I have 3 bet once so far.

(Pot $210)
Flop T74
Hero bets $150, UTG+2 raises to $300 (min raise), fishy passive folds

Hero....? Honestly I haven't seen this guy min raise at all, and I think its totally possible for him to play a set this way, but honestly I feel this guy is smart enough to know I know what a small raise means traditionally (value), and I think its kinda less likely he has a set but not impossible. Should I raise here? Call? I can't fold.

Hero Calls.

Turn: 8
Hero checks, Fish checks

So far so good.
River 9

Ut oh...
UTG+2 bets $200 into $800 pot.
Hero grumbles and calls.
UTG+2 shows JJ

UTG+2 wins $1200 pot.
Did i make a big mistake not jamming on the flop??
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Next big pot less than 5 minutes later:

Hero stack = $500
BB stack = $1100 (Self proclaimed solid reg, very quiet for about 35 hands, maybe been involved in 2 out of 35)
UTG+1 stack = $1300 (TAG reg, respect his game, but not thinking on any deep level about hands, mostly trying to milk fish and play a basic game)
Hero is tilted but not full tilt.
Hero is in the SB with 22

UTG+1 bets $20
folds to hero, who makes what he knows to probably be a -EV play and calls. **** it, i feel like set mining out of position.
BB calls.
Pot - $60
flop 257
DING. Hero pats himself on the back for being a player with much forsight.

Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $40, hero raises to $135 (hoping people will read as flush draw, no interest it making a small raise), BB raises to $270, UTG+1 raises to $1100. Hero....????????

Hero grumbles, but finds a fold.

BB tank folds and admits to having pocket Tens to Hero. This sends Hero into orbit because he thinks SB is full ****** for re-raising TT for value (or was he bluffing?) Hero unsure. The only thing that makes hero feel better is that he showed person beside him the 22 and when he said that he folded pocket twos and partner confirmed the guy who shoved all in for $1100 said "wow thats an epic fold", seem frustrated and left for 10 minutes, and upon returning complimented hero on good fold once more.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hero ($500) is in the UTG with KK
Hero bets $15
folds to SB who calls $15 (stack=$750 (SB is very fishy passive occasional player)
BB calls ($670)

Pot $45
Flop QT6
SB donks for $35
Hero does not think SB will Donk a set.
Hero raises to $110 (trying to rep flush draw)
SB raises top $250

Hero ....???
Hero ships it hoping Villian is on a draw
Villain calls
Villain shows QT

Turn 2
River 4

Villain wins $1100

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hero's bank account has self-set $1000 withdraw limit and hero finds this very annoying, on full tilt buys in for $180 (all he can withdraw for the time being). Feels like he can short stack.

Hero loses $35 and has $145 going into the pot.

Hero is UTG with AQ

Hero bets $25 (likes to inflate with small stack)
Same passive fish as last hand calls.
Two to the flop

Pot ($55)
flop J96
Hero bets $110
Villain tank calls.

Villain shows KQ
WHAT
Turn 4
A
River K
....SIGH
I know I played this one fine. Just wanted to QQ about bad luck on the forums.
Hero sighs and has had enough, goes home.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are my questions: Online, these situations are pretty easy for me to examine. I can look through stats, I have notes on past history, and I feel like overall I have a good idea of how people think when they play poker and as such I know how to react to min bets and min 3-bets on the flop. The problem I'm having is that live is a mixed bag. You have one guy who min raises when he has the nuts sitting beside another guy who min-raises as a bluff, while a third guy like myself never min raises at all. Players are such a mixed bag at these stakes, hero is wondering how he should react against these players in these situations with little to no read. Against plays with the little reads I have, did I make mistakes here? How should I profile people, what can I look for besides what I mentoned to get a better read?

I know this area of my game (playing against people live whose game I haven't really figured out yet) is a weak area for me, possibly made a fool of myself in these hands, but I want to share my mistakes to not only get reasurances that I played all the but last hand wrong, but guidance about what sort of stuff I should be thinking in these situations.

Last edited by TheSamasaurus; 01-07-2015 at 02:29 AM.
01-07-2015 , 03:23 AM
I thought your name looked familiar then I remembered. You're this guy.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...dvice-1427022/

The answers to your questions lie in that thread.
01-07-2015 , 03:40 AM
Not a fan of the 22 fold
01-07-2015 , 03:52 AM
1) standard
2) damn not folding...
3) folding to his 3bet after raising his donk bet. alternatively, since the board is draw heavy and we dont have the Ks, lets just call and re-eval turn
4) tough luck....
01-07-2015 , 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bantam222
Not a fan of the 22 fold
Simply this.

You really give UTG+1 55 or 77 in that hand? FFS you put in $135 with $345 left behind AND you got what you wanted by flopping a 2. Seriously folding?

Last edited by aznman08; 01-07-2015 at 04:03 AM.
01-07-2015 , 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSamasaurus
The problem I'm having is that live is a mixed bag. You have one guy who min raises when he has the nuts sitting beside another guy who min-raises as a bluff, while a third guy like myself never min raises at all. Players are such a mixed bag at these stakes, hero is wondering how he should react against these players in these situations with little to no read. Against plays with the little reads I have, did I make mistakes here? How should I profile people, what can I look for besides what I mentoned to get a better read?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSamasaurus
2. Play live poker! (if you can)
I have won less than $1000 online in the 200+hours i have played. This is less than half the minimum wage in canada. But online has given my the skills i need to crush live poker. Its insane how bad live players are... its honestly mind blowing. I can slowly beat 10NL zoom at a rate of $4 an hour, and i have a win-rate of $45+ per hour playing 2-5NL at the local casino on the weekends. Its a 2.5 hour bus ride for me, but totally worth it. I honestly think the live 2-5 games are somewhere between play money and 2NL in difficulty, so if you can beat 2NL online, you can probably beat any live cash game game.
Let's us know whether you think the second statement is still true. If it is, then you're in the wrong place looking for help and this is just a BBV thread. If not, you may have learned why many online players can't make the transition to live.
01-07-2015 , 09:23 AM
Hand 1: Depends entirely on what you know about villain's min raise range. Without any information I play it the same but give up river some of the time. Once you know that villain like to min raise to see where they are with pairs then flat flop and bet turn, 3 betting flop is only good if villain like to min raise draws.

Hand 2: You should be leading this flop some of the time but going for a check raise is fine also. It's guess work if your fold was good or not. If this sort of thing is tilting to you, this is a good time to take a break. What ever you do, don't show your hand.

Hand 3: Don't open so small with a big pair UTG. Compare your villain description with the action. A passive fish isn't 3 betting draws except an open ended straight flush draw and likely won't donk any draws at all. Raising his bet may or may not be good depending on how passive he is and what he donks but give up to his 3 bet.

Hand 4: You shouldn't be in game at this point. Short stacking requires a lot of disciple that your not going to have when tilted. You played the hand itself fine.
01-07-2015 , 02:47 PM
Hand 1 - fist-pump shove flop, as played fold river you can't beat anything that bets. V should be weighted to pocket pairs and you can only beat QQ which isn't betting this river.
Hand 2 - snap call, folding here is ridiculous especially when PFR sees it as a chance to shove the other guy out of the pot and get a nice overlay vs. whatever you have when he has an overpair or big flush draw
Hand 3 - raise more pre, probably folding to flop 3bet unless you've seen V do it with draws or get frisky with TPGK before
Hand 4 - who cares
01-07-2015 , 04:01 PM
Hand 1 - The river decision is the clear mistake. It sounds like you've profiled this guy correctly. Notice that every single bet he made in this hand was for value, not a bluff. When this type of player bets this river, he's basically never value betting worse and he's basically never bluffing so it's a clear fold. This is one of those spots where you might be able to justify a call online, but it's a completely different story live. So pro tip #1 - A lot of players aren't capable of merging ranges, turning weak hands into bluffs, balancing, etc. and it's usually easy to figure out who these players are without many reads. As a general rule - don't pay them off, they don't deserve it.

Hand 2 - This decision gets interesting if you have $1,000+ behind. But with only $350 behind I'm never folding this unless I have a soul read on villain. Given that we don't have many reads, I'm not folding. Pro tip #2 - Don't show your cards to anybody, you'd be surprised how much a little information can help a good player dial in on you.

Hand 3 - If villain truly is very passive, alarm bells should be going off when he 3-bets you on the flop. Also, you shouldn't be raising him on the flop because, "you're trying to rep the flush draw." I think it was this thought process exactly that got you into trouble here. You convinced yourself that he thought you had a flush draw and he was just playing back at you. If villain is truly a passive fish player who doesn't play very often, he is only concerned about his cards - not yours. Pro tip #3 - Passive players hardly ever make a move like this without a super strong hand.

That being said, this is still a pretty tough spot. Again, you didn't have that many chips behind so it's not a terrible shove. But I do think it's possible to find a fold.

And just to be clear - raising his initial bet on the flop is definitely the right move, but you should be doing it purely for value vs. Qx/flush draws/straight draws/combo draws.

Hand 4 - To each his own, but if I'm stuck a lot and I don't have a lot of money left, I call it a day. To me it's just really stressful and usually futile trying to come back with a short stack. I'm much more comfortable saving my money for next time when I can fire multiple bullets again.

And fwiw op, you DID run really bad. Even if you managed to play hands 1-4 flawlessly you still would have lost money. And the spots you got put in weren't easy. So I wouldn't beat myself up too much about this session. It happens. Regroup and get ready for the next one.
01-07-2015 , 04:33 PM
The KK hand I don't see an effective stack size. The hand wasn't played terrible as I don't think 3 betting the flop ever gets called by worse. The river is a fold though as played.

The 22 hand is just bad, I'm never folding with only 100bb effective.

The 3rd hand is a bit unlucky but I raise more preflop, we still have about 30% equity vs top two pair.

If my math is correct it sounds like you lost 2 buy ins. That is going to happen no matter how well you play. It's called varience, get used to it. It helps to have a viable bank roll for the stakes your playing at. Do you have 10k you can stand to lose?

Last edited by Mr_Doomed; 01-07-2015 at 04:47 PM.
01-09-2015 , 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed
The 22 hand is just bad, I'm never folding with only 100bb effective.
A few people commented that the 22 was a call because i had only $350 behind. The reason why i considered this deep effective re-re-raise by the UTG is because the BB who 3 bet my raise (the bb) had 220BB to start the hand.

On the flop the hand went: (SB (Hero) - 100BB to start hand) check, (BB - 220BB to start hand) check, UTG (220BB effective) bet, SB raise my set, BB reraise, UTG shove) both the UTG and BB were over 200BB deep. So yes, I only had $350 left in front of me, but the BB who 3-bet the flop had over $1000 left behind. The UTG put out a $1200 raise, yes, I only had $350, but the BB could have called off the whole thing. I was not deep but I was caught between two players who were.

I figured that the BB had just called preflop and then check -3bet which looks very much like a set, and when the UTG pushed over 220BB effective in the middle (effective because the BB was deep enough to call) one of them must have a set as i can't give them both credit for 3 and 4 betting the flop with a pair or two pair or flush draws much of the time. Best case I could think of was a flush draw and an overpair where I had about 60% for 2.3-1 orrrrrr i'm drawing to a single 2 with like 2% (totally dead), which I think is most of the time. If the BB only had $500 to start the hand I agree its a clear call, but with the BB able to call off almost all of the UTG's 220BB re-re-raise I feel like UTG must have nut flush draw or a set with his range weighted to sets, and the BB also has sets most of the time too, although i may have given him too much credit for a set because I didn't think he was a donk at the time and do now withi is 3-bet on the flop with a weak overpair. I don't think I have ever folded a set on the flop in hold em before (at least not on such a dry board, possibly never), and I have no intention of making a habit out of it, but I honestly think this is a spot to do it.

Last edited by TheSamasaurus; 01-09-2015 at 06:36 PM.
01-09-2015 , 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSamasaurus
A few people commented that the 22 was a call because i had only $350 behind. The reason why i considered this deep effective re-re-raise by the UTG is because the BB who 3 bet my raise (the bb) had 220BB to start the hand.

On the flop the hand went: (SB (Hero) - 100BB to start hand) check, (BB - 220BB to start hand) check, UTG (220BB effective) bet, SB raise my set, BB reraise, UTG shove) both the UTG and BB were over 200BB deep. So yes, I only had $350 left in front of me, but the BB who 3-bet the flop had over $1000 left behind. The UTG put out a $1200 raise, yes, I only had $350, but the BB could have called off the whole thing. I was not deep but I was caught between two players who were.

I figured that the BB had just called preflop and then check -3bet which looks very much like a set, and when the UTG pushed over 220BB effective in the middle (effective because the BB was deep enough to call) one of them must have a set as i can't give them both credit for 3 and 4 betting the flop with a pair or two pair or flush draws much of the time. Best case I could think of was a flush draw and an overpair where I had about 60% for 2.3-1 orrrrrr i'm drawing to a single 2 with like 2% (totally dead), which I think is most of the time. If the BB only had $500 to start the hand I agree its a clear call, but with the BB able to call off almost all of the UTG's 220BB re-re-raise I feel like UTG must have nut flush draw or a set with his range weighted to sets, and the BB also has sets most of the time too, although i may have given him too much credit for a set because I didn't think he was a donk at the time and do now withi is 3-bet on the flop with a weak overpair. I don't think I have ever folded a set on the flop in hold em before (at least not on such a dry board, possibly never), and I have no intention of making a habit out of it, but I honestly think this is a spot to do it.
PFR can have any combo draw or NFD so it's still a snap call, especially with the dead money already in the middle. Let's say BB wants to iso you with an overpair like TT because he thinks you have a FD - what's he going to do, just call your raise? No, he's going to raise enough that you're committed and hope to force out the PFR. Maybe the PFR realizes this and decides to re-jam with any flush draw to get BB out of the pot and get heads up with the short stack and a huge overlay. If I was V in this hand and had a combo draw I would do the same thing.
01-09-2015 , 07:04 PM
I'm going to lock this up. You've gotten good advice and it appears that you're now entering the phase where people start defending their decisions. Threads generally run down him quickly at this point.

Locked.
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