Hello all,
Hopefully I can get a useful thread that will help both I and all you readers with something I think is a major factor in playing successfully at low limits live poker.

I'm referring to open bet sizing, something that isn't to hard to master online (generally) we raise between 3x-5x and accomplish mostly want we want (Steals, Isolations, Thinning the field)

However this standard sizing doesn't seem to have the same effect in live poker. Trust me I played for 2 weeks with my opening size being between $6-$10 and unless you guys like playing JJ UTG in a 6 way pot than adjustments must be made.

I guess I will just post a few examples and see what you guys would do in these spots, but I would like if you guys also posted your ideas behind certain hands in certain positions.

It is under the general assumption that most of these spots discussed are at your typical passive calling to see flops kind of live poker games unless otherwise noted.

To make it easy lets also assume this is $1-$2 but feel free to use 3x or $6 to describe sizing (ill put effective stack sizes in parentheses as I know this factors in to the size)

1. JJ UTG (75bb)
2. QQ in the BTN 4 limpers in front (100bb)
3. QQ in CO 2 limpers in front and a pre-flop LAG in HJ makes it $8 (100bb)
4. JTs on BTN 3 limpers (140bb)
5. KK in BB 5 limpers (50bb)

I will wait to post what I would do (probably wrong anyway). I also wouldn't mind taking this discussion in any direction especially about pre-flop, a part of my game that I first mastered but I think it needs some tuning.

The answer is so table specific that it's impossible to answer the question.

Sorry I don't have auto click settings. I need more information. Generally I open big bc I feel I have an edge and the more manies in the pot the better.

^^ I generally open small for the exact same reasons

Opening small at LLSNL is a leak

also opening size based on hand strength and I will steet poker yer ass till its broke

My opinion.

People are always like "well if I make it 10, i get 5 callers, so I will make it 15 to get one or two"

I really dont think this is right. It is not so much about the amount you open to as it is what everyone else is holding. Don't get carried away with this, I'm not saying you can open to 50 bc the guy w KQ suited is never folding. Thats dumb.

What I am saying is that when it comes to raising over limpers, you just gotta accept the fact that they really want to see the flop and if a few people call in front of them they are calling.

Heres the idea. 3 limps, you raise it up to 15, Button calls, Sb calls. These limpers are calling a lot of the time. They just are. Its a chain reaction. If the button or the SB or whoever wants to play that call triggers all the limpers to call. There is no proper sizing to get heads up, some pots are just never getting heads up. Raise it up to 35 and take it down pre or make it 15-20 and accept that your going multiway.

This doesn't make any sense

Online perhaps; in MTTs perhaps but not LLSNL

Correct

also correct


OP don't worry so much about exact sizings. The difference between 3x and 5x opens pre is immaterial compared with the ability to play post flop where 100+bb can go in. Not to say pre-sizing isn't important but don't get so hung up on some specific sizing plan.

This is so table-dependant that a "one-size-fits-all" strategy will forever remain illusive. I've seen $10 raises fold everyone and I've seen $30 raises get called in multiple spots.
Some of the factors:
-Player looseness/tightness
-Hand strength of the callers
-The time of day
-How long the game has been going
-Whether there is a good game on the TV
-The raisers' table image
-Probably a bunch of other things I can't think of right now

5X + 1X per limper if you want to raise is a good rule of thumb when you have nothing else to go by. Bet sizing at 1/2 is more about playing the table then anything. It's best to see how the table reacts to various bet sizes and adjust your play and range to the bet sizing you need to make. I've been at 1/2 tables where raising to $5 had a good chance of folding everybody and ones where raising to $20 would get 5 callers with stacks < $100. It just varies too much.

It also makes a difference if the table is taking any note of your bet sizing. At some 1/2 games you can set your own price by raising small with drawing hands and big with strong hands and people won't notice. If your opponents are competent, that sort of strategy is suicide.

As a side note, 1/2 and 2/5 play entirely different in this regards. At 2/5 opening sizes are usually $20/$25 and that is it.

In many cases this is true. I mean, if 5 other players at the table have pocket pairs and big hands like AK/AQs, we're going 6+ ways to the flop pretty much regardless of raise size. And even if we raise biggish after limpers, if one of the blinds call and all the limpers know the other limpers are loose/cally, then again, there is a good likelyhood we are going to a multiway pot almost regardless of what we do.

But at least we can *try* our best to thin the field (if that is our goal). In the above examples, and a lot of the hands I see posted in the forum, at these loose tables we practically guarantee a very multiway pot if we raise small. A big raise doesn't guarantee success, plus it might just take down the limps (which isn't exactly our goal either). But the point is with a bigger raise at least we'll give ourselves a *shot* at narrowing the field, and thus put ourselves in a good situation more times than we end up putting ourselves in a bad situation.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Make sure you buy in full (100bb), then open ship everything.

Its GTO and therefore unbeatable.

/thread

Which is why I lock a lot of "generic" situation questions like I will with this one. OP, you have stumbled on one of the biggest reasons online players struggle with live play. Online players can run rings around live players in theory. The problem is that online players basically hunt for a table that is optimal for their one style of play. If it changes, they simply move to another table. In live, good players adjust their style of play to the table. It is one reason that winrates live in BB/100 are so much higher than even the best online players can achieve.

Also, please read the stickies. The one you're looking for (in the "best of" collection) is "The old argument: Why raise so much?"