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Looking for Feedback on KK hand

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02-19-2014 , 01:53 PM

wilson1560

adept

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 709

Villain: older guy, hadn't seen him raise any hands in the few orbits I had been at the table, definitely no re-raises. Some loose pf calls, but hadn't seen him try to put moves on anybody.

Hero: late twenties unremarkable appearance (i.e. clean cut look, no headphones, poker attire, etc.). Have made a couple aggressive plays, but had the goods whenever I had to showdown.

9 handed action

Hero in bb with KK: UG raises to 17, call, call, villain raise to 35, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 120, fold, fold, fold, Villain raises to 240 with 200 behind, hero covers. Hero?

Is it ok to fold kings here? Also, is my 4 bet sizing ok?

Spoiler:

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02-19-2014 , 01:57 PM

Bigpants

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 592

Your 4bet looks good.

I don't ever fold kings pre...but if its OMC...I might find a fold in this spot.

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02-19-2014 , 02:10 PM

adammatthew21

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 135

I think your betting was fine throughout. This is a terrible spot but with this, all you can rely on is your read at the table at that moment. If you really felt he had AA based on image and the events that took place, it is a good fold. Sucks folding KK but trust your read.

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02-19-2014 , 02:15 PM

DUCYdonk

adept

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 764

I just don't fold KK preflop (they can have AK, KK, and QQ too often) ... but if you wanted to make a case for it, against an old man, live, 5-betting, having effectively min-raised twice, etc. it is probably okay.

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02-19-2014 , 02:38 PM

johnny_on_the_spot

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 11,608

Is this 1/2 or 2/5???

2/5 it's effective 88bb. I'm stacking 100% here

I'm guessing it's 1/2 though based on the raise to 17, so were 220bb. Vs an unknown I'm stacking. vs an old guy who min raised twice I think I could find a fold sometimes

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02-19-2014 , 02:42 PM

Fish Taco

banned

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 1,580

Is this 1/2 or 2/5? I can't see folding KK for less than 100bb's. The click back is what has me fooled though. I jam and try to run it twice

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02-19-2014 , 02:46 PM

DUCYdonk

adept

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 764

RIT in 1/2?? lol

Also, agree with everyone who said that 2/5 is no-hesitation ship. 1/2 I'm still shipping, but if you were ever going to find a fold pf with KK, it would probably be here.

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02-19-2014 , 02:52 PM

BetStack

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUCYdonk

this ... I think you can let it go here only based on V's description

Certainly don't need another raise here to define V's hand strength

Maybe there is a case to call and see the flop (high variance/fishy) to evaluate (flop set, 3 to a straight or flush) ... but that's pretty murky

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02-19-2014 , 02:59 PM

TextheZombie

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 165

Nice fold, especially if deep stacked.

Stacking off here with <100BB but deeper it's a nice fold.

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02-19-2014 , 03:22 PM

#10

Shwauby

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 284

I probably just shove, blah at folding KK pre...

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02-19-2014 , 03:23 PM

#11

wj94

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 7,944

If V didn't have AA here I would be shocked and amazed. That said, I'd probably still pay him off. I suck.

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02-19-2014 , 04:31 PM

#12

wilson1560

adept

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 709

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Taco

Is this 1/2 or 2/5? I can't see folding KK for less than 100bb's. The click back is what has me fooled though. I jam and try to run it twice

Sorry, it was 1/2.

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02-19-2014 , 05:33 PM

#13

ManiacalNit

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 43

Folding KK Pre sure sucks. I have done it 5 times in 1/2 and/or 2/5. It takes a Strong read (and trust in your reads) that V is not capable of stacking off with QQ or AK.

Each Time:
1) the effetive stack was > 150 BBs
2) I had a read on my opponent as tight and not capable of stacking off with QQ or AK
3) It took me a couple of minutes to do.

1 of 5 times I was shown QQ
3 of 5 times it was AA
1 of 5 times it was KK

under 100BB's I'm crying and calling every time.

In this spot i would probably cry and fold.

Obviously I can't count how many times i have refused to fold KK and seen my opponent table AA.

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02-19-2014 , 10:54 PM

#14

Dirty313

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,486

i would flat the 3bet every time

4betting does nothing here as old men fold qq a lot and will snap fold there jj

they dont 3bet ak/aq usually so i doubt he has thoise

call and peel a flop

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02-19-2014 , 11:26 PM

#15

DUCYdonk

adept

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 764

If we call this 3! we're probably seeing the flop 5-handed. Either way, what is your plan going forward on non-A boards?

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02-20-2014 , 01:19 AM

#16

wilson1560

adept

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 709

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty313

i would flat the 3bet every time

4betting does nothing here as old men fold qq a lot and will snap fold there jj

they dont 3bet ak/aq usually so i doubt he has thoise

call and peel a flop

Might agree with this line heads up, but with this many other players in the hand, don't you think it is necessary to thin the herd? Also, even heads up, if we just flat the three bet, how do we play the flop? Any jack, queen, or ace and we are not liking our hand and will be looking to keep the pot small whereas a four bet preflop with kings builds a large pot when it is most likely we are ahead. Also, pretty much committed to getting it all in on the flop if low board which I guess is ok, but if can narrow villain's range to aces preflop by four betting and save $320, why not do this?

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02-20-2014 , 01:46 AM

#17

ibelieveyouoweme$80k

LLSNL FF Champ '13

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,868

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilson1560

Spoiler:

first you say everyone folded to the 35 then you say fold, fold, fold after you make it 120 ... which is it? did anyone call the 35 before you made it 120?

i'd be inclined to fold. this is an OMC who is trying to get action.

sucks hard to get KK and have to fold pre ... but there are just certain players who are NEVER doing this without AA.

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02-20-2014 , 03:04 AM

#18

slimshady1999

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 4,313

You always have to 4bet pre. Pretty easy 4bet fold to $75 pre. You want to keep in worse hands and obviously AA 5bets and you fold. I don't see him overplaying QQ or AK. I do hate your sizing pre, it commits him

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02-20-2014 , 03:05 AM

#19

slimshady1999

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 4,313

I'm still folding as played.

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02-20-2014 , 03:08 AM

#20

slimshady1999

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 4,313

Even at $2/5 this is a fold unless you saw him overplay some hands

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02-20-2014 , 03:13 AM

#21

slimshady1999

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 4,313

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty313

i would flat the 3bet every time

4betting does nothing here as old men fold qq a lot and will snap fold there jj

they dont 3bet ak/aq usually so i doubt he has thoise

call and peel a flop

4bet fold is still the optimal play. If you're that concerned about them folding, 4bet small to $60 or $65. They won't fold this deep to a small 4bet. Flatting just gets you stacked on a lot of flops or you risk folding the best hand against QQ.

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02-20-2014 , 03:29 AM

#22

daniel9861

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,389

+1 to the min 4bet/fold.

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02-20-2014 , 06:16 AM

#23

HiroNakamara

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 493

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilson1560

Hero in bb with KK: UG raises to 17, call, call, villain raise to 35, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 120, fold, fold, fold, Villain raises to 240 with 200 behind, hero covers. Hero?

Is it ok to fold kings here?

the min-re-raise is a weird way to play AA.
Then, after you've cleared out the field with a 120 four-bet,
I would put you on JJ+ or AK
and if I had AK, I'd reraise you again thinking I'm flipping with all but two hands - and with the pot being so big and giving me the right odds.

Unless you had any amazing read on the player - I don't know know why you wouldn't call or shove.

Does this guy always min-re-raise with the nuts?

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02-20-2014 , 09:02 AM

#24

wilson1560

adept

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 709

Quote:

Originally Posted by IbelieveinChipKelly

Sorry if confusing. It was 9 handed action I am BB and Villain is UG+3. UG opened to 17 and got 2 calls before Villain raised to 35. Then next 4 players (UG+4, Cutoff, Button, and SB Fold, I re-raise to 120, then UG, UG+1 and UG+2 fold, and villain re popped to 240.

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