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Old 01-25-2013, 03:58 PM   #201
5CardDrew
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Originally Posted by 11t View Post
please give good advice for once
Are you talking to me or ilcd?
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:03 PM   #202
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Has to be ilcd. TP is very rarely ok when you have a manic doing the lifting for you. LP is just like slots, but using cards instead of wheels.

My question to everyone: What is a "TAG"s approach to 3 betting? Is it just AK+, QQ+?
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:04 PM   #203
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Tp lp is the blueprint of losing rec players and losing regs

Not sure what you mean. Pretty much any skilled player that follows ikes preflop strategy will crush, and that's tag

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UTG is ok.

Mp is just too loose.

LP is well beyond loose for a tag.

The problem with playing out right tag is we are playing clueless players, stacks are short(under 200bbs effective), we often get a 4/5 way pot with crap hands like 55,KTo, blind stealing is not possible, iso'ing limpers from mp is a losing tactic and our opponents can't hand read nor know what proper play is on different types of flop texture's, let alone turn and river texture.

Pay4MySchool I know you have respect for ike but playing tag/lag is just impossible in llsnl. I have tried already and failed at it. The conditions just don't add up with tag fundamentals.

Nobody notices you are playing tight or loose. They don't know 20% is loose. Don't know 15% is tight. They think 2% is tight and 30% loose.

How can you overcome those dynamics?
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:09 PM   #204
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I've done it for 3 years. Tiiight in ep, aggro in late

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Old 01-25-2013, 04:14 PM   #205
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
The problem with playing out right tag is we are playing clueless players, stacks are short(under 200bbs effective), we often get a 4/5 way pot with crap hands like 55,KTo, blind stealing is not possible, iso'ing limpers from mp is a losing tactic and our opponents can't hand read nor know what proper play is on different types of flop texture's, let alone turn and river texture.
First off, your raise size should be standard and serve to thin the herd to at least 3 ways. If that doesn't usually happen, just raise more. It's gonna be swingy because of the small SPR ratio, but you can bet smaller pf then you could online or in a higer game, so it works out.

Basically what poker comes down to is you put money in the pot whenever you have an edge. If people are limp calling with hands that are better than KTo, of course you have to tighten up, but in general we have an advantage because the average players will 1) call PF with hands that do poorly against a TAGs range and 2) fold pf with hands that are less than the nuts (even when they shouldn't). Raising KTo and 55o over limpers is crazy, but if it folds around to you, those are perfectly reasonably raises PF, just because the table is playing tight enough and you can get called by worse.

And your opponent making bad plays and not knowing what to do is a good thing, not a bad thing. Even though the WTF factor can be tilting and variance heavy at times...
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:16 PM   #206
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Fair enough Pay, I have been playing lowstakes for 4 years I have only seen one optimal tag in my life. He is a 5/10 and 5/5 reg. So it can be done, it was a unicorn but it has been done.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:31 PM   #207
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

I agree with Raidion....

I'm not in a 5 way raised pot with 55 unless the stacks are deep and I'm obviously playing for the set and nothing else. I don't know if I've ever been in a 5 way raised pot with KTo because I'm folding it unless I'm in LP and first in.

ILCD - You said that stealing is impossible in LSSNL and I have to disagree. I don't mean this to come across as arrogant, but it's very doable if your opponents are kind of afraid of getting in a hand with you. Even better is when you get one caller from OOP who just can't bring himself to fold pre, but now has to check fold the flop. If this isn't happening pretty frequently, then like Raidion said, raise bigger.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:41 PM   #208
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Blind stealing is what I'm referring to. Stealing postflop is not what my comments are intended for.

I will raise ATC if unopened or not limped to me. But how often does that happen?

When I'm in late position I have ranges for 1 limper, 2/3 and 4+. That's the only way I can beat these dudes. I'm not going to bloat the pot up vs inferior opponents because I need to play strict tag preflop requirements. Playing optimal anything is a barrier.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:43 PM   #209
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raidion View Post
My question to everyone: What is a "TAG"s approach to 3 betting? Is it just AK+, QQ+?
I don't feel strongly that my strategy is optimal, so take it with a grain of salt, but here's where I would deviate from just the "big 4".

I will sometimes just call with those hands when I'm on the button or the cutoff, only 1 player has entered the pot for a raise, and he has a wide enough range and shallow enough stack that he probably can't call a 3 bet, but could stack off light OTF, and the blinds are tight enough that the pot is going to be heads up.

I will sometimes 3 bet weaker hands (99 - JJ, AQ, KQ) in addition to the big 4, in that exact situation (assuming the raiser is not in EP). I would be more inclined to 3-bet those hands if there is 1 or 2 callers in between, and even more so if I'm in the blinds. The caveat is that all of the players in the hand have to be loose enough that I'm not expecting to be dominated, but not so loose that they are likely to call the raise, and that the stacks can't be so shallow that a Cbet pot-commits me.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:45 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
Fair enough Pay, I have been playing lowstakes for 4 years I have only seen one optimal tag in my life. He is a 5/10 and 5/5 reg. So it can be done, it was a unicorn but it has been done.
Maybe you just aren't doing it right. Obviously there are low stakes games that require more overlimping in lp but your base needs to be tag, with some lag for those good enough to adjust based on conditions at table

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Old 01-25-2013, 04:46 PM   #211
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Playing optimal anything is a barrier.
^ Is that a level? Playing optimal anything is optimal.

You can't steal blinds in LLSNL, people will give you action (in their minds) as a favor!

Opening ATC from even late position is a leak. "Bloating" the pot (assuming stacks are not all that awkward) vs inferior opponents is called playing good poker. Put money in when you have the most equity, and get out if they get all aggressive (which is when you don't have equity). Value, value, value.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:50 PM   #212
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Opening ATC otb when folded to you is a leak? I guess.

Vs inferior opponents you want to keep the pots smaller preflop. You have it totally backwards. Assuming we are not talking about pure value hands.

"Pretty basic stuff"
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:53 PM   #213
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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The caveat is that all of the players in the hand have to be loose enough that I'm not expecting to be dominated, but not so loose that they are likely to call the raise, and that the stacks can't be so shallow that a Cbet pot-commits me.
This sentence just made a whole lot of things make sense. We don't 3bet just because we have the best hand at 100-200bbs, we 3bet because we want to be able to get stacks in easier. This contributes to my goal of planning hands better (which I forget to do sometimes, and that autopilot gets expensive...)

I'm so glad I realized this, because I probably would have 3bet AQ over 3 limpers and a raiser to around $35, gotten two callers, and then found myself looking at a flop of K98 with a flush draw and a SPR of 1. And then swearing to myself silently.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:56 PM   #214
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
Vs inferior opponents you want to keep the pots smaller preflop. You have it totally backwards. Assuming we are not talking about pure value hands.
This is literally insane. Obviously you don't want to have awkward effective SPR ratios, but I want that pot big as possible 3 ways when I enter with my superior equity.

We want to make the pots big anytime we have a superior combination of equity and skill. The idea of TAG is that when we enter a pot, we have both (even though we lean on the card's equity quite a bit, otherwise we would be LAGs).
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:00 PM   #215
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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I'm so glad I realized this, because I probably would have 3bet AQ over 3 limpers and a raiser to around $35, gotten two callers, and then found myself looking at a flop of K98 with a flush draw and a SPR of 1. And then swearing to myself silently.
I mean, if it goes limp-limp-limp-raise, I'm probably 3-betting AQ as well. I think having one of the original limpers call $33 on top and getting pretty much the worst flop ever for AQ is just a bad break.

Edit: On the plus side, you can take a free card here.

Edit #2: Actually, I partially take that back. There are plenty of 1/2 players where I would assume that AQ does not do well against their PF raising range.

Last edited by 5CardDrew; 01-25-2013 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:00 PM   #216
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Ok, they have some very good classic threads on 2+2. I recommend you read a couple. Junglemans well and limons classic thread.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:08 PM   #217
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Ok, they have some very good classic threads on 2+2. I recommend you read a couple. Junglemans well and limons classic thread.
Jungleman's thread is mostly for HSHUNL, which is about as different from LLSNL as you can be. And Limon (and buddy Bart) say you want to keep pots small PF because you have the biggest edge in postflop play. Also, because of the levels they are playing (and how deep they are), they play a much wider range of cards and so often don't have the pure equity to build a pot pf and need to maximize the value their hand reading exp and use of deep stacks to win pots. We are playing closer to short stack poker with a much stronger pf range. You are leveling yourself if you keep pots smaller pf.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:12 PM   #218
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

There is a part of the well he talks about how he would play llsnl. He recommends a 10/30 style. That's the range I play lowstakes.

Limon also talks about vs inferior opponents we can bloat the pot anytime postflop. No need to tap the glass pre.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:21 PM   #219
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

I think stack size is the key here.

Take an extreme example...
Let's say people are playing 30bb stacks, and no one ever bets or raises except for you. In that case, you know the money is going in if two people have a hand, so you would want to get the money in when you have the biggest edge. Preflop, you would need a really strong hand to be sure you had a big edge. Otherwise, you would want to wait until you flopped a good hand before you build the pot.

On the other hand, let's say the stacks are infinite. In that case, the money in the final pot is essentially doubled or tripled every time anyone makes a bet on any street. In that case, you would raise with pretty much any hand you want to play, especially in position, because it increases the value of your +EV spots later in the hand.

Of course, this still ignores the issue of winning without a showdown. With normal-ish stack sizes, one of the biggest reasons for your preflop raise is to pick up the pot on the flop. If you have to make the best hand to win the pot, it's pretty hard to win.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:25 PM   #220
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Jungleman can handread like a mofo though. That's far too LAG in most games, so you're gonna be put in a bunch of tough spots against droolers who won't fold.

And in LLSNL, you are playing with 'real american dollars', so if you bet >$70, people think twice just for the amount of money in play. Typical LLSNL players play LP or TP so they aren't raising you and they are folding to your raises (especially if they are correctly sized pot% raises). Very few and rare are the typical players who will get their entire stack in over 3 streets to raise f/pot/pot/pot with A9o on an AJ782 board where the flush comes in. Pot Pot Pot scares off everyone.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:38 PM   #221
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

All this talk about stealing just makes me laugh. I don't want to steal blinds at $1/$2 ... I want people to view me as solid and that when I raise, they'll call, then fold to my continuations. Either on the flop or turn. And they'll pay me off when I have a hand.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:43 PM   #222
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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All this talk about stealing just makes me laugh. I don't want to steal blinds at $1/$2 ... I want people to view me as solid and that when I raise, they'll call, then fold to my continuations. Either on the flop or turn. And they'll pay me off when I have a hand.
Yeah, I agree that the purpose of the "steal" play is not so much to get the blinds as it is to get the pot on the flop, but in a way it's all the same thing.

Also, I'd say that stealing the blinds without a good hand is a pretty good result and often overlooked. I mean, let's say a typical good 1/2 player makes $15 per hour, then stealing the blinds once per hour represents 20% of his profits.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:02 PM   #223
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

It is very important to be tight aggressive in llsnl as then you will crush players who are playing weak-passive-loose. The deeper the effective stack the more chips you can steal as you have the threat of future bets.

Often your opponents will be entering hands with too wide a range or peel too much on the flop with little clue of what to do on the turn if facing another bet. Obviously do not barrel stupid first time players or complete stations but the vast majority of players who play frequently, enjoy going to the casino to play poker and have played enough of the game to know some strategy; they know that third pair is not a good hand to stack off with but they do not have the discipline or skill level to fold marginal hands preflop.

Furthermore a lot of these regfish will not want to be embarrassed into stacking off light around people they play with all the time.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:04 PM   #224
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Ibelieve you don't realize how much 2.5bbs is obviously. The preflop steal is an agg's best weapon online.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:24 PM   #225
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Ibelieve you don't realize how much 2.5bbs is obviously. The preflop steal is an agg's best weapon online.
Online not live. Granted I'd love to steal the blinds every hand, but it's not the difference between a winner and loser like it is online.
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