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Old 01-21-2012, 02:09 AM   #176
JPII
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by Phulhouze View Post
Overall, I really like this thread - I agree that many people don't know what TAG is, or don't have the discipline to actually play it. Just as an exercise, I played hyper-TAG a couple months ago at 1/2 for 14 hours: AA-JJ + AK + AQs in EP, Any PP+ AK, AQ, KQ in LP. I basically lost almost no pots (barely even got people to call me on the flop), usually stole the blinds, and I won $50-$60 whenever I woke up w big pairs in the blinds or late position and several players had already committed $10-12. After $14 hours, I was +$25, so it's an almost unbeatable system for loose 1/2 games, but people are scared ****less whenever you enter a pot, so over time you barely make more than your blinds.

As for range, I know you said this was not an exact list, but would anyone else care to discuss some of the details. This does not seem very TAG to me - I like to play PP from any position, but textbook TAG would fold the 22-44 UTG, right? Also, why KQ and not AQ? What about only AQs and KQs?

MP seems even more un-TAGgy. Raising w/ KTo from MP? I'm not in love w/ raising from MP even w/ ATo.

Finally, in late position, I just can't see playing J8s as TAG under almost any circumstances. As Doyle says, "In my day, we didn't play king nine" (I think he meant to add 'in cash games.'). I feel I often play much tighter than this range preflop, but when I am looking to open up, I'm more likely to add 67+ SCs than to add J8. When you play a non-ace broadway w/ medium kickers, aren't you just asking for trouble? Isn't being TAG about avoiding situations where you have to commit significant portions of your stack w/o a fair amount of certainty that you're best? The high-card power the J8 adds is negligible, but the two-gappedness reduces the straight possibility significantly compared to connected cards.

Do u mean u were up only $25 , after 14 hours? Or did u mean something else? Because I would not consider this to be good for 14 hours of play.
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Old 08-26-2012, 04:39 PM   #177
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

This OP and the resulting discussion has helped me more than any other single thing as far as being able to beat live games. I dont know what it is about the way I look that people dont trust me, but it doesnt hurt to ALWAYS get your value bets payed.
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Old 08-26-2012, 04:47 PM   #178
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by Tom Dwans Son View Post
Would raising the following hand ranges (as a base, obv could change slightly based on table conditions) be profitable at 2/5 or is this simply too nitty:

EP (UTG through UTG+2) - AK, TT+
MP (UTG+3 through HJ) - AK/AQ, KQs, 88+
Cutoff: A9s+, ATo+, KQ, KJs, QTs+, JTs, 22+
Button: A2+ KT+, QT+, JTs, 22+
Wow, this is back when I was trying to play TAG. Time flies when you are having fun and playing like a donk.
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Old 08-26-2012, 05:30 PM   #179
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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My image is never TAG. In fact, two sessions ago I had a guy say to me "you don't care about the money do you?" I almost hugged him- I think that's a great image to have.

TBH, I don't care about traditional TAG and LAG definitions because I think they are useless, so I use my own when I think about the game (though I don't use these definitions with other people, because that would be presumptive and irritating). In my head, however, LAG/TAG are defined as

TAG- wait for edges and push them hard
LAG- push hard, regardless of edge

To me, these are useful definitions because they don't focus on pre flop and they are flexible to adjust to table conditions. Whenever I am considering a pot, I ask the question "what is my edge here, and what would it look like to push it?" If I cannot answer that question, I fold.

This usually ends up in me playing a style people generally refer to as LAG, but in my head, I am still TAG- I am just waiting for edges and pushing them hard. If I am not pushing an edge, either because I am passing on edges or because I am pushing without them, I am playing losing poker. I find this to be a much more useful exercise and thought process than traditional definitions. And in fact, my thought process never changes, but as the edges do my play varies greatly. So many things can become an edge (cards, position, picking up of tendencies and tells, showing down a non-premium hand, etc.) and if you pass up your edges, you are leaving money on the table.

When people ask, I say I am a LAG- but in my head and heart I am a TAG and I think if I WERE a LAG as I understand it, I'd be playing losing poker.
Nice OP Ike and nice thread (for the most part)

I quoted this because I like the definitions of TAG and LAG here. These terms represent philosophies or approaches to the game rather than specific recipes and hand ranges (as Ike has tried to point out many times). A TAG may cbet and barrel with AQ after whiffing which really does not represent anything "T" post flop. In a poker forum, these imperfect terms are necessary because they make up a language that we can understand. The language is useless however if the words do not have some collective mutually understood meaning and usage, which I believe is the entire purpose of Ike's initial post.

PS - I will add that the major difference between a TAG and a nit is fear.
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Old 08-26-2012, 05:50 PM   #180
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
This may be a bit controversial, but I truly believe that most players in LLSNL would be better served folding just about everything other than pocket pairs and KQ, AJ+ OOP.

3bet JJ+, AK, call 22-TT (assuming stacks are somewhat deep), AJ, AQ, KQ. Fold everything else. There's very little reason to push money around in the blinds 9 handed. You have 7 other spots to win that money back.
I respectfully disagree. As thinking players, we should be able to win even when we don't have cards. Admittedly at a $1 $2 or $2 $5, there's not a whole lot of "outplaying" going on, which makes me think we really should be able to outplay the competition at $1-$2 and $2-$5. We shouldn't be limited by the random cards we're dealt. At least that's my hope!
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Old 08-26-2012, 05:59 PM   #181
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

folding doesn't mean you aren't outplaying someone. And cards matter a ****ing ton in 2/5 and 1/2 because those limits are showdown fests.
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:18 PM   #182
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Understood. Is there ever a time you decided to 3-bet with junk in late position because you had an inclination the EP nits would fold? Or the EP loose passive player would call preflop and then fold the flop if he/she didn't hit TPGK? That's all I'm saying - we can develop skills to win even when we don't have the best cards. However I do agree that at $1-$2 / $2-$5, it can be a showdown fest. That's where we have to learn to pick our spots.

A quick example - I triple barreled into the "weakest" player at the table. Raise pre-flop, he calls, and checks the flop, I bet pot, call. He checks the turn, I bet the pot, call. He checks the river, I bet pot hoping finally for a fold. He calls. I said nice hand, good call, and showed him 5 high. He turned over 6 high and took it down. Ouch! Talk about a soul read! ha.

So, what I'm saying is picking spots can be profitable even if you don't have cards. The flipside is picking the wrong spots can be expensive, but as thinking players we likely won't make the same mistake twice.

Hence, through our information sharing and knowledge of the game, I'd hope we can "outplay" our opponents at LLSNL. (Even if that just means very rudimentary plays). Taking a pot here and there with the worst hand, and as you mention, knowing when to fold.
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:58 PM   #183
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by River G View Post
Understood. Is there ever a time you decided to 3-bet with junk in late position because you had an inclination the EP nits would fold? Or the EP loose passive player would call preflop and then fold the flop if he/she didn't hit TPGK? That's all I'm saying - we can develop skills to win even when we don't have the best cards. However I do agree that at $1-$2 / $2-$5, it can be a showdown fest. That's where we have to learn to pick our spots.
Yes, notice how we're in position for both of those things? I'm specifically talking about OOP in the post you quoted.
Quote:
A quick example - I triple barreled into the "weakest" player at the table. Raise pre-flop, he calls, and checks the flop, I bet pot, call. He checks the turn, I bet the pot, call. He checks the river, I bet pot hoping finally for a fold. He calls. I said nice hand, good call, and showed him 5 high. He turned over 6 high and took it down. Ouch! Talk about a soul read! ha.
You're lying.
Quote:
So, what I'm saying is picking spots can be profitable even if you don't have cards. The flipside is picking the wrong spots can be expensive, but as thinking players we likely won't make the same mistake twice.
This is tautological.
Quote:
Hence, through our information sharing and knowledge of the game, I'd hope we can "outplay" our opponents at LLSNL. (Even if that just means very rudimentary plays). Taking a pot here and there with the worst hand, and as you mention, knowing when to fold.
Yeah, nowhere do I subscribe to never bluffing or never playing a weak hand. Ever. I simply point out that most players would be better off to greatly limit the hands they play out of position.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:20 PM   #184
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
This may be a bit controversial, but I truly believe that most players in LLSNL would be better served folding just about everything other than pocket pairs and KQ, AJ+ OOP.

3bet JJ+, AK, call 22-TT (assuming stacks are somewhat deep), AJ, AQ, KQ. Fold everything else. There's very little reason to push money around in the blinds 9 handed. You have 7 other spots to win that money back.
i agree, this is almost exactly my range for the past 1.5 years and my win rate has improved greatly. I cut so many hands out of my opening range from mid to late position including hands like K10ss, Q10ss, etc and I've done better overall from playing tighter
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:29 PM   #185
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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i agree, this is almost exactly my range for the past 1.5 years and my win rate has improved greatly. I cut so many hands out of my opening range from mid to late position including hands like K10ss, Q10ss, etc and I've done better overall from playing tighter
You should consider your tighter range an interim solution. Hands in the ranges you are folding are profitable if you have good post flop skills. Your goal should be to get those hands back into your opening range. To do that, you need to devote all of your poker homework time to identifying and plugging your post flop leaks that are preventing you from playing more marginally profitable hands.
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:36 PM   #186
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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You should consider your tighter range an interim solution. Hands in the ranges you are folding are profitable if you have good post flop skills. Your goal should be to get those hands back into your opening range. To do that, you need to devote all of your poker homework time to identifying and plugging your post flop leaks that are preventing you from playing more marginally profitable hands.
And while I know mpethy knows what it takes to do this, it isn't a matter of reading a few threads and shoving these hand back in your range. If you're complaining that you need to use IWTSTH to win, you aren't ready to put them in. If you aren't routinely thinking each step what your counter action is if you are called or raised, you're not ready. If you aren't predicting what the villain will do after you make a move, you aren't ready.

For those who think live is boring and you need ear buds in so you don't go insane, predicting on each hand what each player will do is a test of your knowledge of that player at least every 2 minutes. If you're wrong, you need to adjust your range. If that game doesn't keep you occupied and you aren't crushing the game, you need to work on your observation skills. If you are, you know you're ready to move up.

(tip of the hat to King Spew)
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:00 PM   #187
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

- i think your MP/LP ranges are a bit too loose (for TAGs) even for unopened pots, and the raising range should tighten a bit if there are limpers ahead of you.
- for some reason you're not opening 44 in LP.

Also, a lot of a TAGs cold-calling range should almost only PPs (especially at the straight forward 1/2 and 2/5 levels). At these levels, although this is unbalanced in theory, no one will ever be good enough to punish you for it. Lastly to win at 1/2 and 2/5 you should forget LAG play and just play formulaic TAG. The shorter the stacks, the more "mathematically solved" poker becomes.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:23 AM   #188
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post
I figured I'd resurrect this thread because I have a question that I didn't think was worth its own thread.

Is it bad to limp AQo+ from MP, UTG+1, and UTG at 1/2? I know this isn't TAG, but I also know true TAG (20/17) is not a style that should be used at this level.

It seems like such a weak passive move but I think that is the best way to play it. Regardless of the raise-size, all it takes is one caller to start the cascade of callers that put you in awful position with no fold equity.
It's not bad, it's an ok play but u are still missing tons of value. Just open raise to 7.5-10bb pre and ull probably notice that ull get 1-2 callers only. People still call with tons worse and u can actually get it heads up but also u dont have to worry too much about being dominated unless someone has ak or qq (which won't happen enough anyways).
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:29 AM   #189
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

i doubt even 1 percent of the $1/$2 players in the room are TAG. 99 percent of us play too many hands. no one goes to the casino to fold for four hours then leave.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:40 AM   #190
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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i doubt even 1 percent of the $1/$2 players in the room are TAG. 99 percent of us play too many hands. no one goes to the casino to fold for four hours then leave.
Not sure i agree with the first part. Only a tiny percentage are tags but its definitely more than 1 or 2%. 90+% of players do play way too many hands. Even a lot of solid players and tight players limp in wih too often pre. This is often cause of boredom or just trying to play stackadonk. I'd say less than 5% of players play less than 30% of their hands
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:13 AM   #191
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by quesuerte View Post
He also has a misunderstanding of how many opponents are thinking and how long it takes good players to accurately assign ranges. Both of these things make even playing significantly tighter ranges than OP suggested +EV if you play that range well. Getting exploited for being too tight on 9-10 handed games against very weak to decent players, a proportion of who have small stacks is almost impossible. I swear I'd still beat the rake playing QQ+


^ you nailed it. hahaha. so true
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:15 AM   #192
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by IbelieveinChipKelly View Post
i doubt even 1 percent of the $1/$2 players in the room are TAG. 99 percent of us play too many hands. no one goes to the casino to fold for four hours then leave.


lol iv done it
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:09 AM   #193
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Okay, I have a basic question about notation here. Two actually.

1. AJs+ means "Ace-jack suited or better", correct? The plus sign means "or better"? If so, what does ++ mean?

2. The answer to question 1 may answer this question, but if + means "or better", Why write part of a range as AJs+, KJs+, QJs+? Why not just write QJs+, which means everything suited better than QJ, which would include AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, and KJ?

On topic, I am viewed as ultra-tight by the place I play. Players have started openly saying "who raised? corlath? I fold." Even a dealer now calls out my hands. When I raise preflop and c-bet a QJ3 or something, and I get folds, he'll say "Your pocket aces are good." And he'll also generally call out my hands before I flip them over. He's usually right. I play beyond tight--I play nitty. That's something I want to change, but I don't see myself using OP's early position opening selection anytime soon...
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:41 AM   #194
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Okay, I realize now that there isn't such thing as JT+. Hands are described as the higher card first, then the lower card, with a + denoting "and better lower cards".

Still don't know what ++ is.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:09 PM   #195
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by corlath View Post
Okay, I have a basic question about notation here. Two actually.

1. AJs+ means "Ace-jack suited or better", correct? The plus sign means "or better"? If so, what does ++ mean?

2. The answer to question 1 may answer this question, but if + means "or better", Why write part of a range as AJs+, KJs+, QJs+? Why not just write QJs+, which means everything suited better than QJ, which would include AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, and KJ?

On topic, I am viewed as ultra-tight by the place I play. Players have started openly saying "who raised? corlath? I fold." Even a dealer now calls out my hands. When I raise preflop and c-bet a QJ3 or something, and I get folds, he'll say "Your pocket aces are good." And he'll also generally call out my hands before I flip them over. He's usually right. I play beyond tight--I play nitty. That's something I want to change, but I don't see myself using OP's early position opening selection anytime soon...
AJs+ means all suited jacks that is aj or better (so Ajs,Aqs,aks). The reason u don't write only qj+ is that qj+ only means play all queens that is qj or better.
QJo+ would mean all offsuit queens that is qj or higher. U can write j10+ which is all jacks that is j10 or higher, etc. I think u get the point. Also regards ur question about playing too tight. Just bluff a lot more in position. U can still play really tight from early and even middle but I'd start raising really light from late (like 77+,A9+,K9+,Q9+) and betting tons of flops and even turns if people keep folding. U can even expand that range if people keep folding. Eventually they'll adjust by calling u lighter in which case u just go back to playing tight. Btw it's almost impossible to play too tight (though I've done it lol). The vast majority of players would save TONS of money even if they're losing players (or increase their win rate) simply by playing 15-30% of hands. Use pokerstove or some other software about hand ranges and u will find out that 80+% of players play 40-60% of their hands (and there are a few that play 60-80% of hands).

Last edited by slimshady1999; 01-25-2013 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:10 PM   #196
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Not sure what ++ means though. Never seen it before. I'm guessing qj++ means qj+, KJ+,aj+.

Last edited by slimshady1999; 01-25-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:44 PM   #197
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Corlath - without knowing anything about your play, I am going to suggest that it's possible you think you're playing TAG but are actually playing TP/nitty.

I play a very TAG style (except in certain situations), and only the pros as my casino have described me as a tight player. The fish and regs all think I'm a maniac, because all they see is that I'm almost always opening for a raise and Cbetting, and then making big bets on the turn and river which are sometimes bluffs.

To play TAG effectively, you have to make enough bluffs (including steals, cbets and semibluffs) that it's a mistake for your opponents to always fold to you. If you aren't doing this, you are really just playing TP.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:46 PM   #198
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

The problem with playing agg in lowstakes; no preflop pot to steal. In llsnl stealing blinds is impossible. So its really hard to stay afloat without free steals. Which makes tp/lp the best styles for lowstakes.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:49 PM   #199
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

please give good advice for once
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:50 PM   #200
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The problem with playing agg in lowstakes; no preflop pot to steal. In llsnl stealing blinds is impossible. So its really hard to stay afloat without free steals. Which makes tp/lp the best styles for lowstakes.
Tp lp is the blueprint of losing rec players and losing regs

Not sure what you mean. Pretty much any skilled player that follows ikes preflop strategy will crush, and that's tag

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