and a misunderstanding of what LAG is because calling with all kinda suited ish and hoping to flop isnt really LAG either.

He also has a misunderstanding of how many opponents are thinking and how long it takes good players to accurately assign ranges. Both of these things make even playing significantly tighter ranges than OP suggested +EV if you play that range well. Getting exploited for being too tight on 9-10 handed games against very weak to decent players, a proportion of who have small stacks is almost impossible. I swear I'd still beat the rake playing QQ+

This is exactly what I would have posted. If you look at Ike's opening ranges they are not nitty and some people have questioned that they may be a bit loose.
I don't want to speak for Ike but I think his point is that you may want to reevaluate what you're describing as a TAG vs. Nit vs. Lag.

As an example a nit isn't opening IEP with a range of 9.5% nor is a nit opening IMP with an 18% range and so on.

but ... until we teach these droolers that straddling every button and limping the straddle is gonna come with a big smack on the wrist ...until that time howabout a range we are able to play for a raise from the three spots also if they were broken down into hands that we want multi way and hands we wanna iso raise ... last what exactly is meant hands that have show down value ?

This is not necessarily true. With a lot of those high implied odds hands such as 22 and JTs, it's perfectly reasonable to open-limp them from EP if you think there's a decent chance of this going multiway unraised. As a matter of fact, it's almost certainly a mistake to open-raise these when people will coldcall ferociously, as you'll just end up with a highly speculative hand out of position.

These ranges seem absurdly pair-heavy and high card-heavy to me. EP: 22 over AJs? MP: JTo over 87s? In these low stakes games where the pots are frequently multiway, even with a raise, there should be a fairly large discrepancy between suited and unsuited, and connectors (suited or unsuited) should drift downward significantly below your high card "line" (e.g., for K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s the "line" would be 8).

For instance, in MP, I'd switch:

22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo (18%)
to
55+,A5s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs-87s,A8o+,KJo+ (18%)

for the same open-raising percentage.

Also, in LP, I think if it's so frequently folded to you that you've got a well-defined CO/BTN opening range, it's just time to find another game. We, or at least I, play 1/2 specifically because it's multiway flops with people showing down top pair 6th kicker, value bet thin, EZ game. I don't want to have to deal with stealer-defender HU flops until I move up.

table conditions can exist where its more profitable to limp speculative hands in ep opposed to raising them. but you no longer get to state you are tag when describing your playstyle.

What you say not a problem, so long as it's not assumed "TAG" is always the best style to play then. In a loose-passive limpfest, the best play to make is to open-limp 22 (vs. folding and vs. raising) in EP. Call that whatever you want - TAG, LAG, LP, TP.

After trying different styles, I think the problem with LAGing it up at 1/2 at least is that villains already are call-happy. If you're opening all the time, you need really superior reading skills and have to play extremely well because you have to not pay off when they hit, but steal from them when they don't. If you're off your game even a little bit you end up totally spewing money.

Vs extreme stations, you will never push them off a hand anyway, so it won't matter. You also really need at least some cards for this strategy to really pay off, and it's really easy to get frustrated and screw it up over long stretches at 1/2.

I've kinda concluded that it pays to just play tighter, since most fish will still call you even if they tell you they haven't seen you 3b all night.

Can you expound on this a bit more? Where and when should pot control come into play, if ever, if a TAG game is what we're gearing to?

I think there is a misconception going on in this thread. Nobody is saying that TAG is the right way to play 100% of the time, no matter who is in the hand. Playing TAG can be a disaster in certain situations.

Ike's point is that if you're over-limping/calling even 1/3 of the time (or your villain is), neither of you is playing TAG. You can play tight/loose or whatever. But don't describe what is going on as TAG.

we're not raising specifically 44 from LP?? wtf ike

the issues raised in this thread are why in my HH's i usually describe hero image as "tight" rather than "TAG", because most villains (if they are even paying attention) are characterizing us that way anyway. bad players are never thinking "k i know he's tight, but is he tight passive or tight aggressive". they'll just think you're a tight player.

i dont consider your opening ranges in late position to be tag, thats on the looser side

<<<---- impressed OP has almost 50k posts

I err away from raising hands like K10/A9ss in multiway pots because of the RIO, even in positon. If one guy limps infront and I am

People in my games limp AK, limp AQ A10 etc etc.

Imo the way to exploit these guys is to overlimp with nutmining hands like baby suited aces, obviously pocket pairs and take the lead OTF when we hit, their passive and tend to want to reach showdown.

I used to try and abuse position with K10, Q10ss etc and it didnt work for me because of the rio.

lol at quibbling over the exact ranges. Put about no effort into that. If the ranges are the most important part of that post to you you're missing a ton.

Yeah 4, 5 and 6 were huge imo

Btw: I was thinking about pot control during the down time of my session today, and how often I really use pot control. It's really pretty rare for me. Most of the time I have to pot control when I've done something stupid in a prior street.

Pot control typically happens when I get myself in a bad spot and/or not sure what I want to do. If you find yourself pot controlling a ton you're probably either doing something stupid the street before or you're pussing out and missing value.

What stakes do you play and with what stack depth?

Against mostly straightforward players 100bb and below at 2/5 and below you are right. Against a mix of players at 5/10 that includes some good/tricky/tough players and wwith 150bb+ stacks what you said above is wrong.

I've played a ton of msnl online, just got a roll big enough for 5/10.

Fact is, most players aren't nearly as tricky as they think they are at 5/10 imo. Even when they add a few moves into their game, they are still generally predictable.

I wasn't questioning your experience. I was asking at what *live* stakes have you found pot control to be largely unnecessary. From your response, it sounds like it's 2/5, in which case I would agree.

Pot control starts being necessary at the same time that bet/fold no longer becomes the optimal line with medium-strength made hands like overpairs/TPTK and as stacks get deeper. At 2/5NL and below and against weak 5/10 players, pot controlling is worse than bet/folding because you can bet/fold with confidence. Once people start bluff raising turns and floating turns to bluff rivers, you have to start adjusting with hands you aren't committed with, or commit if you think someone is so aggro and wide that it's profitable. In either case, bet/folding becomes much worse, and now you are either c/calling or b/calling depending on the situation and opponents.

Looks like P4MS vs Dr. Ikes will be an epic battle at MCC over Christmas.

I don't agree with the MP opening range, it seems a little wide for LL. Many times in MP, you're going to have at least two UTG limpers. Do you still raise that wide in that case?

I only read the opening page....first playing tag and having a tag image are two different subjects. Your image is what people perceive of you...aka you fold for two hours straight but only bc your card dead....or your image is lag....yet you could have had the deck hit you in the face with no showdowns so everyone can assume your a lag.

That's my only grunch with this subject.

Agree with the MP being a little too wide, I wouldn't feel very confident raising K10off with 2 limps, and sticky people behind me, and raising less than 55 UTG is suicide at least for me postflop.

I would make the MP range just a touch stronger, and UTG even a little bit.

opening != isoing

Ah, ok. So how much does a TAG's iso'ing range tighten?