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Old 01-26-2013, 06:33 AM   #226
corlath
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by 5CardDrew View Post
Corlath - without knowing anything about your play, I am going to suggest that it's possible you think you're playing TAG but are actually playing TP/nitty.

...

To play TAG effectively, you have to make enough bluffs (including steals, cbets and semibluffs) that it's a mistake for your opponents to always fold to you. If you aren't doing this, you are really just playing TP.
I never said I was TAG, I was talking about my image at the table to show just how nitty I am. I am a freakin' nitty nit. I will occasionally overlimp speculative hands, and I will shove all in with overcards and oesfd or overcards and nut flush draw in the right situation. However overall, I play very nitty because I am short rolled and I buy in for half stacks. I wait for someone to raise 12-15, when I have KK, AA or AK, and however many callers, and then I pop it for my buyin and either take it all down for free, or get all in preflop very +EV against opponents who will call with pocket pairs and KQ, AQ+. I will of course raise if it comes around to me and I have TT+, AQs+, AK, in late position, but I'll often overlimp 22-99 even in late position to set up against a table of donks with a half stack not too hard to get all in OTF.

At least, that is how I have played in the past. I'm opening up a bit more, but I still would not classify myself as aggressive.
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Old 01-26-2013, 02:34 PM   #227
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

To be honest, most players don't adjust so you can be profitable just with value betting. However your winrate will be much higher if you can take away pots even when you miss via barelling or other aggression.

One of the things that I feel like this thread is missing is that your opening range should always be ahead of the limping range of the other players. Opening A7o on the button to end up value owning yourself on an A high board because someone limped AT and just ends up check/calling you down.
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:41 PM   #228
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Raidion, this is tough because there is an old lady at my regular game who is decently selective of her starting hands but who never raises preflop, never 3-bets either. I mean 0%, she cold-calls with up through AA 100% of the time. And she plays passive on the flop as well, so if she's in the hand you absolutely don't know what she has. It's frustrating to have her at the table sometimes, with a collection of other people who play more normally.
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:11 PM   #229
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by corlath View Post
Raidion, this is tough because there is an old lady at my regular game who is decently selective of her starting hands but who never raises preflop, never 3-bets either. I mean 0%, she cold-calls with up through AA 100% of the time. And she plays passive on the flop as well, so if she's in the hand you absolutely don't know what she has. It's frustrating to have her at the table sometimes, with a collection of other people who play more normally.
Figure out her limping range and adjust accordingly. She is making a huge mistake by giving u a chance to take free cards and making her hand face up if she does raise. It's actually not hard to play against her, wait for a hand ahead of her range post flop and bet fold bet fold
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:31 PM   #230
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I would just like to thank ikestoys for making this excellent post.

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using 2+2 Forums
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:20 AM   #231
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

I couldn't find the answer to this, but why raise KQ EP but not AQ???
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:33 AM   #232
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Why not raise QJ if you're going to raise KQ?
Why not raise JT if you're going to raise QJ?
Why not raise T9 if you're going to raise JT?
Why not raise 98 if you're going to raise JT?


and so on and so on
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:11 AM   #233
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
Why not raise QJ if you're going to raise KQ?
Why not raise JT if you're going to raise QJ?
Why not raise T9 if you're going to raise JT?
Why not raise 98 if you're going to raise JT?


and so on and so on
but AQ is better than KQ
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:16 PM   #234
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

"This is by no means exact, just a guide"
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:53 AM   #235
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Has to be ilcd. TP is very rarely ok when you have a manic doing the lifting for you. LP is just like slots, but using cards instead of wheels.

My question to everyone: What is a "TAG"s approach to 3 betting? Is it just AK+, QQ+?
i guess by what has been said in this thread i am a "tag", though i had thought i was more lag before reading this.

anyway my general approach to 3! is aq+ and tt+ until reads indicate otherwise
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:15 PM   #236
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

Last night at my local casino I played using this starting hand range and was pretty aggressive post flop with the right board texture and I have to say it was my best poker ever. I played for about 8 hours.

I noticed I was the most frequent raiser at the table, which is weird, because it made me seem like I was loose. Towards the latter half my shift, almost no one was respecting my raises, and almost everyone would call my $10-$12 raises, where in the first half I would get a few people to everyone to fold.

I also noticed out how I was the only person raising more in LP which makes me think that no one really paid attention to position. Kind of crazy in this supposed modern age right?

It was fantastic poker and a lot of fun, because before I tried this style out, I was nit, which is so ****ing boring.

The only ****ty thing that happened was completely my fault, as I played until I was exhausted and I was so hopped up on caffeine I didn't realize I was tired, and finally towards my last hand, I made a horrendous mistake and got too aggressive in a bad spot and I got felted. I went from level 2 to level 0 poker in that last hand.

I'm going to start using a timer on my phone and after x hours, have it buzz off every 30 minutes so i can ask my self the question, "Am I playing my best poker?", and if not I'll go home.

As to this style, I really like all of the raising/opening, especially in position, as people can't put you on a hand, we have more information and it opens us up to some fantastic play which can only be done in position.

On my reflections on the 80 or so $1/$2 regs at my casino, I notice there are very few players that play TAG at my casino, and several of the young guys who grind are just nits, they aren't playing TAG. I wonder why that is? I can guess when we have a lot of loose spazzers, nit is the way to go, just wait for a good hand and crush gamblers. The loose spazzers aren't giving us any fold equity which is important to a TAG( at least I believe ).

But when the table is fairly nitty and or passive, that's when being a TAG shines, against these passive players.

*edit*

Also on the OP's point:
Quote:
1) TAG raise unopened pots. Yes this means you open with 55 in MP. Simply put, there's not enough 3betting going on in most LLSNL to worry about this being wrong.
This is really great, because if we do get 3 bet, there's a narrow range we're up against, generally JJ-AA, I don't see villians 3-betting AK too much, but it does happen. But the point is, we can generally fold and wait for better spots to combat villians.

**

I do have one question, I play in 9 handed FR games.

I was dividing the table into groups of 3 for EP, MP and LP, maybe I was doing this wrong, and thus raising too much; but I assumed,
SB, BB and UTG where EP.
UTG+1, MP, MP+1 were MP.
And HJ, CO and Button were LP.
Is this right?

Last edited by oldschool_vegas; 03-19-2014 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:15 PM   #237
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

I've been using this guide for almost 3 months now, and it's working out great preflop. The only thing I've changed is that I really don't like betting A2o+ from LP. It's so damn weak, and it's really hard to play post flop most of the time. Some people call down with their A/x+, or others will notice my aggressive LP raising, and will 3bet me, or in general my image will go to ****. I don't feel comfortable putting $10-20 with A2o-A8o in LP.

Maybe I still need to learn to play post flop better, when to CB when to check, etc.. Simply dropping A2o-A8o shouldn't make me a nit right?
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:23 PM   #238
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Perhaps our definitions of TAG differ but I consider myself fairly close to a TAG and I'm never folding Axs in the BB
Never?
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:42 PM   #239
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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Good post ikestoys.

The interesting question is why do people deviate from playing TAG. I think about 75% of people on this forum understand with and agree with most of your post. There might be slight disagreements (e.g. I think it's totally fine to fold QTo/KTo in MP, I think it's fine to fold AJo utg or limp/fold with it. But I don't play 1/2 and at 1/2 raising with it is probably fine as people will call with a lot of Ax while as at 2/5 and 5/10 people understand RIO better and won't do that as much). So if it's not well-though out disagreement about strategy, it has to be behavioral. I think top reasons why people deviate from TAG are:

- boredom. A full-ring TAG will play ~15% of hands. At 30 hand/hour, that is 5 hands an hour. That is one hand every 12 minutes.

- overconfidence. Thinking that they can out play people, etc.

- tilt. Being stuck and wanting to get even. Can't do that not playing, and hands don't come any better just because we are stuck
- not being a good enough poker player. I actually think this is a minority reason. So calling in the BB vs. A tight UTG open with KQo, or an average MP open with 100bbs with Axs might come under this heading. Most people don't plan their hands, they just play them. So they don't think through what calling OOP with KQo vs. a 8% UTG means in terms of how they will play on various flops/turns/rivers. They just see a hand they know is pretty good and default to a call. Then they post a hand where they do this, board runs out K72rJr, and villain bets 1/2 pot into them on the flop and turn and they want to know what they should do. (By the way - what *do* you do? I have no idea against a tight relatively unknown player. Probably fold. Ok, so same flop, but now they check turn back. River bricks. You check, they bet you do what? Whats their bluffing frequency? Are they betting worse hands? Instead of checking that river, you block-bet. What's their calling range? Are you over 50% against it? So hence I stopped calling preflop in most 2/5 and always in 5/10).

People also don't play TAG postflop because they are fundamentally afraid of losing the pot. They subconsciously maximize winning pots over EV. That's why people who know better don't bet/fold enough against straightforward, loosish players. They are afraid of getting raised and losing a pot with a hand they want to see the showdown with.

You combine all these 'drifts' and now you have a creature that is 40% TAG, 30% station and 30% nit. That's what too many of us end up actually playing like.


Next 10 sessions, give yourself one point per session for each session you have played TAG for at least 80% of the time. Be honest. See what score you get. If you played 70% TAG in a session, you get 0 points for that session.
I realize this is an old post, but wow, IMO it is a great one.
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:02 PM   #240
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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All the time in this forum I see stuff like 'Hero has a TAG image. Hero calls MP open with 87o' and I laugh. That isn't TAG dude... at all. It seems like a ton of people have no clue what TAG is. This is important because you can't really play LAG or sLAG until you've mastered TAG.

So, the basics, TAG stands for tight aggressive. This should be pretty obvious but that means you don't play many hands, but when you do you come out firing.

Things TAGs do:

1) TAG raise unopened pots. Yes this means you open with 55 in MP. Simply put, there's not enough 3betting going on in most LLSNL to worry about this being wrong.

2) TAGs raise more in late positions:
This is by no means exact, just a guide:
a. EP - UTG through UTG+2 - 22+, AK, KQ (9.5%) of hands
b. MP - UTG+3-HJ - 22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo (18%)
c. Late position - 55+,33-22,A2s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o +,T9o (33%) of hands

3) TAGs do not call with A8s OOP. Seriously. A typical live player doesn't open more than 15% of their hands, even in later positions. Take A8s and put it against against a top 15% range in pokerstove. A8s is a 55%-45% dog. No this doesn't mean you can call because of pot odds FFS. The 55-45 is a pretty big deal, and without set implied odds you're going to be outplayed postflop. Very few players are good enough to consistently outplay people OOP, don't bother trying.

4) TAGs value bet. TAGs do not check/call when the flush hits after they cbet. TAGs do not 'pot control' very often. TAGs do not slowplay just because we have a big hand.

5) TAGs bet/fold in LLSNL because most villains aren't TAGs either.

6) TAGs 3bet AK the vast majority of the time.

I'll add more to this as I think about it.
I assume this applies to games 200bb+ deep. Can you really raise so light in EP in a 100bb deep game?
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:25 PM   #241
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

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All the time in this forum I see stuff like 'Hero has a TAG image. Hero calls MP open with 87o' and I laugh. That isn't TAG dude... at all.
First off...great post. But I do want to comment on your opening line here. I know what you are saying, but it is possible to have that TAG image and still raise 78 from MP. The table may view Hero as TAG. While the Hero may be shifting into a sLAG mode. AGain, good topic but I just wanted to make that point as when reading a post like the one you quoted, it is not necessarily "laugh-able" but rather, makes good sense.

Last edited by wager9; 06-24-2014 at 03:25 PM. Reason: my e key sticks
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Old 06-25-2014, 05:26 PM   #242
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First off...great post. But I do want to comment on your opening line here. I know what you are saying, but it is possible to have that TAG image and still raise 78 from MP. The table may view Hero as TAG. While the Hero may be shifting into a sLAG mode. AGain, good topic but I just wanted to make that point as when reading a post like the one you quoted, it is not necessarily "laugh-able" but rather, makes good sense.
learn2read, he's not talking about opening, he said CALLS

Edit: I just wanted to make that point that you should comprehend what you're replying to before making a long s***post, it is not laughable but makes good sense to do so.
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Old 06-25-2014, 05:44 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by wager9 View Post
First off...great post. But I do want to comment on your opening line here. I know what you are saying, but it is possible to have that TAG image and still raise 78 from MP. The table may view Hero as TAG. While the Hero may be shifting into a sLAG mode. AGain, good topic but I just wanted to make that point as when reading a post like the one you quoted, it is not necessarily "laugh-able" but rather, makes good sense.
Hes talking about calling a MP open with 87o. Not opening with 87o from MP.

Whoops. Someone else beat me to it.
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Old 12-31-2015, 05:31 AM   #244
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Re: LOL, so you think you have a TAG image?

7) TAGs have the last laugh against LAGs who think they're nits that can be bluffed at every opportunity, but then you pick off every single bluff to throw them in for a loop.
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