This is a great post op. I see I missed a very good topic on the forums yesterday. One thing you forgot to mention is attacking the limpers. Which is a huge leak at these donk fest casinos. We also have to remember that most players at 2/5,1/3 and 1/2 don't know how to apply concepts of tag or lag. Table dynamics, applying hand ranges, position and being aware of your own image is the key to success.

I'd actually be really interested if you could expound on this at all, because let's say you have three limpers and you have a marginal hand like QTs or 66 on the button. Do you raise or just limp for the flop? I've heard arguments for both strategies, and I want to hear your opinions on it.

i think it really depends on the particular pre- and post-flop tendencies of the players that have limped

To kidd dynamite don't ever play your hand like that again. You raise and check smh first mistake. Second mistake you didn't raise you called 7 into a pot of 30. Third your posting a cooler hand which you played passively so you pretty much got lucky your opponent had a j. Conclusion why would you post a hand like that and think your doing something.

Yes you must apply your opponents to limp ranges, I only limp on the button or sb. So with those two examples I would raise q10s or fold depending on my stack to how much I'm up ratio and 66 that's an automatic call on the button.

did you read any of the responses and his explanation in the post?

Another thing about attacking limpers you have to make your raise huge. I play 2/5 so my formula for attacking limpers is 2.5 times the dead money. I don't play 1/2 so I don't know how much I would raise. But ill just raise something ridiculous so I get no more then 1 or 2 callers.

I don't like your PF raise, or its sizing. That raise:

1. Will win the blinds a small percent of the time, and therefore must be done for value, not a bluff/semi-bluff;
2. Get called behind +2 ways a high percent of the time, leaving hero OOP, ect;
3. Not balance a percieved PFR range b/c no one is paying attention;
4. Other things.

If the table is passive, a case can be made for limping. If the table is passive and deep, a case can be made for raising to $9 (but your table isn't deep).

Anyway, there is a lot more to why I don't like the raise, but I can't write a book ATM.

OTF I would lead into these "calling stations".

The turn bet is double the pot

Yes I did, and I'm not trying to troll him or anyone else. I just think a hand should never be played like that regardless of the circumstances.

Checking for balance. I'm almost never leading a board like this at the PFR. I understand balance isn't really needed in LLSNL but I'm just used to playing like that.

I certainly could have lead the flop and turn. I elected to play the hand the way I did, and posted it for my turn and river play. The reason for checking the turn was table dynamic and squeezing money out of the fish. There are many ways to play a hand and I certainly wouldn't have said anything was wrong with leading the flop and turn. I would certainly lead the turn here if no one had bet the flop.

This hand is not a cooler. In fact, that is the exact thinking that we're trying to exploit "I have three jacks, I must call any bet, if I lose it's a cooler" and why an overbet here is effective.


Bold is lol

I don't know what to say about you only limping the BTN...
Whatever you are up or down in the game should not effect your playing style. You should simply try to play each hand the most +EV way possible.

I almost always open to 4x - unless the table is calling really light I'll make it more than 4x. At a table where I feel I have a significant post flop edge I will raise hands that flop well from any position.

If you read the whole hand you see that I get called by J8, so I can indeed raise JTs for value preflop because, though I will also be called by better, I will frequently be called by worse.

KiddDynamite what is wrong with what I said about limping on the button and small blind. I just played an 8 hour session and I only limped 3 times. With that being said don't think I'm a limper I refuse to limp. Most llsnl players love to limp because they don't have the balls to raise.

There are certainly situations where you should limp the BTN, but you said which is bad for many reasons.

KiddDynamite yes I save my fancy plays for when I'm up. I play LLSNL in california with small buyins. So when I sit down I have to build my stack first before I start thinking about fancy plays. If I started at 100bbs I would see why your lol'ing.

I said I only limp on the button or small blind. I learned that from Annette. Which my limps by position are polarized.

Fair enough, play as you do, I'll play as I do. GL

Kidd so your telling me that you like to limp from all positions? And if so why? Most people at LLSNL are droolers and I refuse to to go with the tide. I mainly study film on the pros ex Phil ivey and durrrr. But back to my question I'm only asking because I use this forum to help me get better.

I don't open limp, ever, from any position. I only over limp for one of two reasons: if I'm getting good odds, or if I think a player could be limp raising with a big hand.

This is getting off topic in a very good thread. If you have anything else you like to ask/debate, please PM me.

why would we maybe raise when the table is deep?

Ok one thing I would like to add into this thread. Is table image and how you play your hand according to that image. Most players at the table are never aware of this type of thinking. Example I raise 10 9 of hearts utg. My image is tight most players think I only play aces and kings from up front. So when my range is polarized I get paid off everytime. Or take down the pot with a cbet.

Excellent thoughts op, I play a lot of 1/2 or 1/3 live (500 Hrs in 2010), agree with the points you make.

My thoughts:

1)Especially in Vegas, its a tourists game, alcohol becomes a major factor especially at night, the 1 or 2 buy in types are everywhere.

2)The games are more difficult in more remote locations, where the only reason the player is there is to play (Oklahoma, New Mexico, Indiana, Illinois etc rooms)

3)Players in general do not understand position, pot odds, fold equity etc

4)Players in general do not understand hand ranges and just adjust their call or raises to whatever seems standard for the table.

5)These players love suited or connected hole cards and will almost always call with these hands.

My bad.

I kinda have to half disagree here. I find as long as we maximize our EV in these high equity situations (i.e. sets, etc.), then I don't think there's anything wrong with kinda more or less just passively waiting for these situations since villain's at this level will usually pay us off or make a huge mistake (i.e. poorly timed bluff). That doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking for other marginal spots to make some little money here and there too. But as for the AK on a K55 board with 100 BB, if we aren't checking one street here (unless up against a total calling station) then I think we're making a mistake (I realize I'm probably in the minority here regarding that).

FWIW, I kinda hate the way every street way played with the exception of the river (which I play the same). ETA: If the point of this hand was to illustrate getting max EV out of our great hands with the huge overbet on the turn/river, then point well-taken and I'm totally onboard with that (just too FPS on early streets, imo).