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Old 01-28-2014, 02:34 AM   #1
paratrooper99
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Live tell....

Reads on Villain. Fairly tight. Tight and Passive. Likes to trap and check raise a lot. Plays on the weekends but has been playing for about 5 years with you. Villain views you as a TAG and winning player.

1. Villain (100bb) opens 3x in 1/2 live game from MP. Hero (100bb) has AcAh on button and raises to 11bb. Folded back to Villain and he peers around the other players to look at your stack and asks "how much are you playing with?"

Is this a tell and what does it tell you(if anything)?
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Old 01-28-2014, 02:49 AM   #2
sungar78
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Re: Live tell....

I feel like a lot of nits say this right before they fold. idk obv if you get 4 bet after he says that I'm probably perceiving it as strength. In my experience I don't see/use verbal tells as much as unconscious non-verbal tells. The biggest i.e. I can give is watching opponents when the flop comes down, generally a quick glance at their chips when they don't know you're looking at them means that they're never folding because they crushed the flop. Also if you see someone who sighs and then raises examine the board... That person has the exact possible combination of what they perceive to be the nuts at the time. This probably did not answer your question, I would not read into this particular tell much unless I saw it multiple times.
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Old 01-28-2014, 02:52 AM   #3
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Re: Live tell....

I think he wants to know how much you are playing... But I could be wrong... Just be quiet and let the dealer count your chips for you, or let him see them. You'll probably give more off in your speech than you will being quiet.
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Old 01-28-2014, 02:55 AM   #4
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Re: Live tell....

Yay, another live tell thread.
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:06 AM   #5
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Re: Live tell....

I see this a lot from live regs. Let me try to engage the conversation a little more.

Why would the Villain want to know how much you have behind?
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:15 AM   #6
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Re: Live tell....

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
I see this a lot from live regs. Let me try to engage the conversation a little more.

Why would the Villain want to know how much you have behind?
To know if he has the right implied odds to call with *insert hand here* ... Some do it because they are scared to play against larger stacks (which I see in my game all the time)... To make sure they can play a big pot... I mean there are a bunch of different reasons. I wouldn't read into it as a tell unless you have some history of him doing it and it translates into him having a certain range. Doesn't sound like you have that history though, which is the reason you are posting your question here.
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:21 AM   #7
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Re: Live tell....

Hate to disappoint you OP, but there isn't an ah-ha moment here.

Paddie is right, there are a number of reasons that could make the question swing either way.

Plus so what if he asks the question, his subsequent action would speak much louder than anything he said.

If he just calls your 3-bet, then what does his question implies?

If he re-raises your 3-bet, then what?

If he folds, then who cares.
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:34 AM   #8
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Re: Live tell....

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Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
To know if he has the right implied odds to call with *insert hand here* ... Some do it because they are scared to play against larger stacks (which I see in my game all the time)... To make sure they can play a big pot... I mean there are a bunch of different reasons. I wouldn't read into it as a tell unless you have some history of him doing it and it translates into him having a certain range. Doesn't sound like you have that history though, which is the reason you are posting your question here.
This happens quite a bit more in tourneys but I see it about 2x a week in live cash. I wasn't looking to have the exact answer, but a little conversation on the thought process of the Villain and the forum members for that matter.

I am on the track with the implied odds.
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:36 AM   #9
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Re: Live tell....

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Hate to disappoint you OP, but there isn't an ah-ha moment here.

Paddie is right, there are a number of reasons that could make the question swing either way.

Plus so what if he asks the question, his subsequent action would speak much louder than anything he said.

If he just calls your 3-bet, then what does his question implies?

If he re-raises your 3-bet, then what?

If he folds, then who cares.

Agree with some of what you are going with here. My point is something in Villains mind made him ask. Maybe I should ask a phych major and get a much more serious discussion but I was looking for some underlying thought process.
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:41 AM   #10
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Agree with some of what you are going with here. My point is something in Villains mind made him ask. Maybe I should ask a phych major and get a much more serious discussion but I was looking for some underlying thought process.
How would this discussion or understanding of thought process advance your game?

If you can connect those dots, then maybe there is value in such discussion.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:01 AM   #11
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Re: Live tell....

its a tell that he had suited connectors or a pocket pair or some other speculative hand or monster that stacked you on the flop.
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:18 AM   #12
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Re: Live tell....

Paratrooper,

The point Amazon is trying to make is that while tells may seem like an interesting/fun concept in live poker, in the grand scheme of developing expertise they fall very far down on the totem poll.

For example, you kind of brush off the idea of implied odds and still have the "yea but tell me more about this tell!" attitude. Where in reality you studying the math/concepts behind implied odds for 2 hours would be the equivalent of studying psychology/body language/behavior for 100 hours or more.

A lame metaphor because I am lacking creativity this morning would be an aspiring race car driver who wants to learn how to drift wet corners at high speeds, but currently doesn't know how to put the car in first gear.

Tells are just one useful* add after everything else in your game (line reading, math, ranging) have been used as well.

This is coming from someone who puts much more stock in live tells than most on this forum.

*this is obviously debatable, for all of the reasons stated above
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:29 AM   #13
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Re: Live tell....

He either:

(1) needs your stack to be large enough to give him implied odds
(2) doesn't want to tangle with a large stack
(3) wants to see if you are pot committed, or when you would be (closely related to #4)
(4) wants to know the effective stack size so he can size his bets
(5) just wants to see you move and hear you talk so he can read how comfortable you are in this hand.

That's it, right?
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Paratrooper,

The point Amazon is trying to make is that while tells may seem like an interesting/fun concept in live poker, in the grand scheme of developing expertise they fall very far down on the totem poll.

For example, you kind of brush off the idea of implied odds and still have the "yea but tell me more about this tell!" attitude. Where in reality you studying the math/concepts behind implied odds for 2 hours would be the equivalent of studying psychology/body language/behavior for 100 hours or more.

A lame metaphor because I am lacking creativity this morning would be an aspiring race car driver who wants to learn how to drift wet corners at high speeds, but currently doesn't know how to put the car in first gear.

Tells are just one useful* add after everything else in your game (line reading, math, ranging) have been used as well.

This is coming from someone who puts much more stock in live tells than most on this forum.

*this is obviously debatable, for all of the reasons stated above
Wait, you read Elwood 3-4 times, grouped each type of tells in a spreadsheet with checkboxes for each opponents, spent weeks looking and tallying these tells with regs, and abandoned all of them for lack of usefulness, too?

I did.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:50 PM   #15
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Re: Live tell....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazonPrime View Post
Wait, you read Elwood 3-4 times, grouped each type of tells in a spreadsheet with checkboxes for each opponents, spent weeks looking and tallying these tells with regs, and abandoned all of them for lack of usefulness, too?

I did.
Yes actually I have done all of that.

Well I only read it twice but I did/do track live tells and accuracy in a tab on my workbook.

Funny

I have found some of the general ideas such as eye contact to be quite reliable, but as I alluded to before they are only used on top of everything else and to sway a 50/50 decision.

So yes if someone jams a psb otr and I have ranged him ~30/70 air/value and I'm on the fence, if he doesn't make eye contact for 45 seconds+ and is breathing regularly I'm probably going to call.

If he scratches his left earlobe it is obviously a clear fold.
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:14 PM   #16
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Re: Live tell....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
If he scratches his left earlobe it is obviously a clear fold.
Yeah, that left earlobe vs right earlobe thing is super counter-intuitive, but it has never failed me.

/tic
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:55 PM   #17
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Re: Live tell....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazonPrime View Post
How would this discussion or understanding of thought process advance your game?

If you can connect those dots, then maybe there is value in such discussion.
I post something like this once a month or so to see what high level thinkers can communicate in this forum. Just looking for casual and regular players opinions. Just like the last few times, the newer forum members contribute the most value to the conversation while most of the 2k posters and higher throw one liners in without thought.

For those of you that actually took some time and thought and then commented, thanks.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:58 PM   #18
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Re: Live tell....

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
I post something like this once a month or so to see what high level thinkers can communicate in this forum. Just looking for casual and regular players opinions. Just like the last few times, the newer forum members contribute the most value to the conversation while most of the 2k posters and higher throw one liners in without thought.

For those of you that actually took some time and thought and then commented, thanks.
You're speaking the truth, except that it actually shows that you're simply on par with "newer" forum members.

There's an obvious reason why some of regs are singing the same tune and most of new posters are singing another.

Ponder on that for a while, and if you actually have questions instead of just wanting to hear things you expect to hear, let us know.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:06 PM   #19
paratrooper99
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Re: Live tell....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazonPrime View Post
You're speaking the truth, except that it actually shows that you're simply on par with "newer" forum members.

There's an obvious reason why some of regs are singing the same tune and most of new posters are singing another.

Ponder on that for a while, and if you actually have questions instead of just wanting to hear things you expect to hear, let us know.
I guess that is the problem. I posted the question with an open mind looking for advice and all of the high posters have given collectively "don't worry about it." "It isn't as important as you think it is."

I agree that bet sizing and other tells outweigh live tells but I would think that a thinking player would want to get as much info as possible.

I find it funny that the poster with 2k posts has so little to actually contribute.

If you have anything else to comment, please PM me instead of running up your post count.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:13 PM   #20
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Re: Live tell....

LOL - open minded to you is speaking freely without evidences or merits.

You can find a lot of "open minded" players in the poker room willing to discuss poker strategies.

I asked you a simple question here, and instead of actually respond, you chose to attack:

Quote:
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How would this discussion or understanding of thought process advance your game?

If you can connect those dots, then maybe there is value in such discussion.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:20 PM   #21
paratrooper99
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Re: Live tell....

How would this discussion or understanding of thought process advance your game?

Hmmmm. If I have a live tell that is reliable good percentage of the time, could that advance my game? I think that would be +ev.

How would understanding a thought process advance one's game? I think that trying to understand any thought process will make me a better player. I have thought about the thought processes behind overbetting, min donk leading, donk betting, check raising, etc. This is just another aspect that I would like to understand better and I think a few players on the forum would as well.

Is this sufficient for you to chime in with some substance?
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:24 PM   #22
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Re: Live tell....

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
Is this sufficient for you to chime in with some substance?
If you would ask better questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
Hmmmm. If I have a live tell that is reliable good percentage of the time, could that advance my game? I think that would be +ev.
Correct, except that the biggest factor in live tells is correlation. Player A may always scratch his head when he's bluffing, and yet scratching head is meaningless when Player B does it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
How would understanding a thought process advance one's game? I think that trying to understand any thought process will make me a better player. I have thought about the thought processes behind overbetting, min donk leading, donk betting, check raising, etc. This is just another aspect that I would like to understand better and I think a few players on the forum would as well.
Correlation, correlation, correlation.

There's not one tell that is universal, and there is not one thinking process that is universal.

Am I making sense?
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:34 PM   #23
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Re: Live tell....

One think that's missing from your posts is any indication that you're watching your opponents.

Here's an example of a recent post/thread where the Hero wasn't watching his Villain and lost a bet: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...91&postcount=8

In the thread there's no indication that Hero even realized he should have been watching.

What have you noticed that a particular Villain does consistently that indicates how the Villain perceives the relative strength of their own hand?

Regarding your question:

Ask yourself how is anyone not present supposed to know what the question meant? Maybe the Villain wants the chips to be stacked neatly?
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:57 PM   #24
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Re: Live tell....

if he opens the oreo, puts one side to his ear, eats said side, and raises. auto muck
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:12 PM   #25
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Re: Live tell....

Funny this topic came up. Sometimes its not a specific "tell" per say, but an overall lack of confidence.

Just the other day I had AQ on a K10x board and checked called 2 streets. River I check and he stuffs for 200 or so. Right before he pushed all his chips in, his head looked down and he looked almost like a turtle putting his head down in this "I dont want to do this" kind of look. Granted it was subtle, not super obvious. But readable. I thought for about 2 seconds because I could instantly recognize his weakness and exploited it by making the call. Now sure he shows up with 33 here sometimes and I look like a dumb ****, but normally he's just bluffing garbage. Having that little physical tell can really make big differences in otherwise trivial spots.

There is definite merit to understanding body language - that IS universal.
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