Playing 6 handed at this point

Main V (BB): Middle aged reg, somewhat competent, is one of the more aggro regs, capable of bluffing/semi-bluffing in most spots (Stack = $1100ish)

Other V (Button): Middle aged Chinese man, somewhat nitty, does hero fold too much and weirdly enough floats in strange spots (Stack =$900ish)

Me (UTG): Young 20s white male, Viewed by both V's as Laggy and quite bluffy, been opening quite wide and they would know this (I cover table)

To the hand:

I open to $20 UTG with KQss

Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: KQ9ccd (Pot = $80)

I bet $60, Button calls, BB c/r's to $210

I flat, button tank folds

Turn: 3h (Pot = $560)

BB bets $410 leaving about $500 behind

From what I've heard he's capable of playing big draws like this and I assume any two pair as he is quite aggro (but maybe he might bet smaller on the turn?)... The bet was quite large on the turn and I wasn't sure whether it was 'I have a hand and I dont want you to draw' or 'If i bet small with my draw and he shoves i wont know what to do'


So, what do people think about the flop action? And as played, what to do on the turn

I guess Vs range here would be something like A9-AJcc, 79-J9cc, JT and 99.

However we need to discount 99 somewhat since there would be a non-zero chance he 3-bets it, and we should have enough info in V to know whether his JT combos are limited to the suited variants or not. He can also have the same hand here (K9/Q9 seem very unlikely, especially due to suit removal).

Given that BU called flop, BB is unlikely to have a weak/medium strength draw here, and as such I'm only giving him combo draws. If we think he can do this with all Axcc then our ranging changes a fair bit.

With a range of only combo draws (7), all JT combos (16), 99 (3), KQ (4), K9s (1), Q9s (1), we're ahead of 9 of these, tying with 4, and crushed by 19, and as such we have to fold since we pretty much always have to shove turn given stack sizes. My rough math gives us about 30% equity here (someone can stove this), but we require just under 40% since the rest of the money is almost certainly going in.

If V defends his BB a bit tighter, and only has suited broadways in his range, then there are only 4 combos of straights, and it's an easy shove on the turn.

The most interesting situation is if V check-raises flop with all Axcc, in which case there are 16 combos we're ahead of, allowing us to profitably GII on the turn, since we have about 40% equity if we add all Axcc to his initial range.

I almost want to fold flop vs his huge raise on KQ9. I would definitely fold now. The BU's range is relevant here, he almost certainly had a king or queen in his hand which makes BB's range much more JT / 99 / big draw heavy. You're in terrible shape vs his range and to add insult to injury, you probably only have 3 outs to improve.

I think he would defend very wide 4 way, I think he would actually have Q9o and K9o in his range too (but im not 100% sure)... As for Axcc, I really don't know if he's c/r the bare NFD

This is a good point, I suppose the buttons tank fold is like KJ/QJ/Q10/K10, something like pair + gutshot (Its surely never clubs so I guess it has to be a pair/gutshot)

What? BB is middle-aged aggro bluffer who views V as young laggy kid. I'm not folding.

Call turn call river.

I guess what it comes down to is if he would c/r worse 2pair. Otherwise a range of JT/99/combo draws has you in pretty bad shape.

if you have as bluffy / laggy of an image as you say, then i doubt he is trying to bluff you off a better hand. i woud say he is going for big value with a big hand knowing that you can have a pretty big hand here as well. the flop seems fine but i'm folding to the turn bomb.

This. It looks as if he's going for fat value. He is obviously committed. I don't think he tries this with worse than a big combo draw.

I made a bet like this recently and I immediately hated it when I got check-raised because:

1) Given my image, I wasn't expecting to be given credit for as strong of a hand as I held. This made me have to calculate a huge range of hands that could possibly be raising me thinking they might legitimately be ahead even while in horrible shape.

2) I was in a medium sized pot with a medium sized hand and was feeling very comfortable and I had now blown the pot up to stupid huge in a game that was very deep and I was not feeling comfortable at all.

3) I had both massive showdown value and outs to the absolute nuts and bet myself into a position where I had to think about folding.

I ended up making a really bad fold, thought about the hand a lot, and what I took away from it leans more towards feeling a call here is the right play.

So with that being said, I hate the flop bet. It has no real purpose besides to bloat the pot. If you want to play a really huge pot with this hand then OK but obviously you made this thread so you didn't. But the flop bet happened, so let's analyze what happened after the hand derailed from there.

I think first it's worth asking if villain ever doesn't bomb it on every turn besides a board pair if we flat on the flop.

I think the answer is no. If villain is competent like you say then I don't think he ever check-raises here without a plan for the turn.

I also think the biggest piece of information here is the button call. The button call makes this a pot worth trying to steal because it puts you as the pre-flop raiser and the only player to show real strength out of position between two players facing a very strong move. The button call is very important IMO because it really opens BB's range up and throws a lot more semi-bluffs in there.

The button call is very weak and this is confirmed by the tank fold and I believe BB probably perceives the button call as weak.

If villain is trying to value-bet you have to ask who he was trying to extract value from on the flop, and it's almost never button.

So if he is trying to value-bet hero why is he putting hero in a tough spot with the button to act behind pre-flop.

And then it comes down to bet sizing, which I think is revealing. He raises to full pot on the flop, and then bets essentially his raise + your call on the turn... $410 is kind of a weird bet live in general. I think it shows a pre-occupation with the nice little $200 pot that pops up on the flop

It looks like a semi-bluff to steal and I probably get it in on the turn.

Results:

Nh. Please don't ever fold. He has worse 2pairs and AK as well a non-zero percent of the time. This is 5/5 live people. If we thibk he has combo draws then idk why you guys are even considering folding OTT. If you think he is folding K9/Q9 pre then you don't play enough live poker.

He has worse hands for value and a lot of bluffs. How are we ever considering folding

The way he played this hand was strange. It screams 2 pair to us but he is playing this way for the same reason as having 2 pair. His hand is strong but vulnerable to counterfeit or flushes.

We should be including the JT as well as 2 pair combos,sets, super nutty FD/SD combos in his range there. With that range, we should be folding to the check raise on the flop.