Hero is rec player taking a 5/10 shot on a Friday night (been a couple of months) against a bunch of regs with large stacks (most are 4k+). Bought in for $800 and proceeded to run it up to $1700 in first hour without any showdowns through some run good. Playing very tight pre-flop (and obviously taking a shot) so my post flop action was getting folds whether I had it or not (mostly had it that first hour). Probably look slightly more aggressive post flop than I really am due to strong cards.

Villain is sitting on 8-10k. No hands shown down of note or big hands. Obviously comfortable with lots of cash and big bets he is joking about 2k flips and table seems to be playing pretty tough, aggressive, and creative 5/10 from what I have seen.

Pre Flop

EP Limps
Villain ($8-10k) in MP raises to $40 (standard table open)
Hero ($1700)in CO calls $40 with A10
BB & EP limper call and 4 ways to flop

Note this is just below my 3 bet range and wasn't trying to get cutsey knowing I was not the table skill favorite.


Flop = $165 - 1097

Checks to villain who bets $65 (averagish c-bet sizing)
Hero raises to $175
BB & EP limper fold
Villain calls

I'll share my flop thoughts later

Turn = $515 - 10974

Villain checks
Hero bets $275
Villain shoves for my remaining $1,200 behind after the $275
Hero ???


I'll share my thoughts on the decision later, but curious on line and the turn decision to fold or call the shove?

I'm thinking I would have focused more on pot control than trying to push the 1,000 BB deep stack around post flop. I mean you have a pair of 10's on a super wet board. Don't love an AI here. Folding is exploitable but I don't love the spot your in.

Flop I don't hate but I definitely check back turn and leave all options available on a manageable sized river pot.

Umm, fold.

Why did you bet the turn?

I don't like any street, other than pre. Pre can be a call or 3!.

What are you trying to accomplish betting just more than half pot on the turn? I understand pre flop, no need to 3bet, I like the raise post flop betting pot.

Did you have a feel for what his range may have looked like? Also did he insta jam you or did he go into the tank? Just out of curiosity.

To me the turn bet bloats the pot live and opens anybody up to a good/creative player.

he bet the turn bc he raised the flop. ask him why did he raise the flop

I'm mixed on the flop raise. I do understand getting this to HU is ideal given that our hand is unlikely to improve and is extremely vulnerable multiway on this wet flop. However, V did cbet this flop against the entire world, where the board smashes the blinds' ranges. He's unlikely to have air, so I don't even think we're raising with the best hand/most equity here.

AP, I don't understand the turn bet. Are you trying to get value from naked Ah or Kh, thinking he floated your flop raise OOP with just one heart and no made hand? Seems unlikely. Trying to bluff off an overpair? Only will happen (maybe) if he doesn't have a heart, which is less than half of his overpair combos. Way too thin.

After he jams, snap fold. Your line is consistent with a flush and he doesn't seem to care.

I'll share my range evaluation later.

His turn shove was not insta, but definitely pretty quick maybe 10 secs at most. And he just grabbed a huge stack of $100 and $500 chips and put them in probably 5k worth...

straight spew

flat flop

as played check turn

as played fold to turn raise

Preflop is OK but ATs is the sort of hand I would rather raise or fold. I would usually fold if the situation isn't good for raising but I would make this call sometimes also.

Flop raise is more bluff then value. You will mostly get called by good draws and better hands. I would rather flat call and see if the turn card is safe.

Turn check/raise is a bad situation. 5/10 player is probably capable of bluffing and most can be making a move with a draw but he also has better hands and hands you are drawing dead against in his range. Betting the turn after the most obvious draw comes in is a bluff and when that gets raised you need to fold. Your betting in this hand represents something better then what you have and you still got raised.

This is lighting money on fire IMO. The flop raise in a 4-way pot is already turning your hand into a bluff. You're never getting called by worse except draws, all of which have pretty significant equity against you and may bluff you off later in the hand.

Betting the turn turns your hand into a pure bluff. Nothing worse ever calls and you're drawing nearly dead when he continues. There's hardly anything to be gained by denying equity to hands like 98s, which often would have checked the flop anyway.

Obvious fold to the shove. You do not even have a bluff-catcher as you lose to some of the hands he may bluff with.

His range is uncapped on the turn and you've shown a ton of strength. There's no reason to think he's bluffing here and you don't beat all his bluffs anyway.

Out of curiosity, do you have any data points in previous hands where you semi bluff raised a flop bet with a flush or straight draw? If I’m V, your hand looks like T9, 97 or 77.

I have shown down no hands in and hour, and few hands at the table are getting to showdown.

I raised one other hand on flop without the betting lead, the rest of the hands I won I had the lead pre flop and took it down on flop or turn.

1. How different is flop line given we are 4 handed vs if it were say heads up?

2. What if anything do you read into villain check raising my $275 turn bet to ~$1,500?

Is this how you play 2/5? Why raise the flop and why raise it so small?

Only thing I can think of on the turn is you are repping a heart draw that was trying to buy a free card otf. Which seems like a dubious plan, but, why would you think facing the x/r is a decision?

Villain picked the only sizing that makes any sense on the x/r (it's barely over pot).

- pre good.
-call flop, if you're gonna raise it, make it at least $250, but don't know why you want to overrep
-check turn
-obvious fold to x/r, 4 outs might be optimistic.

Buy in full or rack up.

3bet pre or rack up.

As played flat flop or rack up.

As played obviously check turn.

Just rack up though. Doubling a buy in is a great result during a shot take.

Heads up the raise is not as bad but probably still not a good idea. Villain can be donking worse hands and worse draws plus the pot will be smaller.

At 5/10 it's more polarizing, villain is either bluffing or has you beat. You won't commonly see the mistaken value raises with KT that you might see at lower levels. You won't see the spazz shove moves with T9 type hands that are likely to run into a better hand. Villain is less likely to be semi-bluffing with 98o type hands, the semi-bluffs are 9h8h/Ah7h type hands.

Villains at 5/10 are also more likely to do this with a big hand. They are aware that they need to shove when they have a monster sometimes to balance their bluffs.

As played, fold. Yes, sizing seems to want a fold, but u r inexperienced at this stakes level. Could easily be balancing on the nutty side.

Pre - ok only if u feel none of the 3 players yet to act will 3b. Otherwise I could easily find a fold at this level (Note: I have never played 5/T).

Flop – if u view V sizing as weak and want to protect your equity, need to raise larger. At $175, he’s getting 3.7-1 pot odds to call. I prefer a call and play ip.

Turn – even with a flop raise, need to check back the turn. Imho, it’s not a good idea to play a big pot with a low ranking TPTK in a game that u r taking a shot.

GL!

I, too, would prefer to 3-bet this hand preflop. We will get heads up in position a fair amount of the time, and well, if you don't like playing heads up in position in 3bet pots then unregister from 2+2 & PS and do yourself a favour by quitting poker.

I really don't understand what our raise on the flop accomplishes, especially in a 4-way pot. As others have said this is basically lighting money on fire. I mean we are folding out some worse hands from which we could get value on future streets, getting called by all better hands, and worse yet getting bluff raised by hands we are flipping with that we currently have beat. We are essentially committing suicide here.

The key is to realize how mistakes on early streets compound on later streets as pots grow with every subsequent street. You demostrated this very efficiently in this hand OP.

I can somewhat understand the turn bet because now villain will actually fold some better hands; as a caller in position of a preflop raise, we have a range advantage in this type of spot as we have to assume that overpairs will make up a significant part of his range, whereas connectors & small-medium pairs make up a significant part of ours. We have to assume that we will accomplish the same feat with mostly similar frequency whether we raise the flop or not; you could argue, and probably be correct, that the frequency will be higher when we call as opposed to raise. That's not really my point nor do I want to start a lengthy conversation around that. My point is that when the play does not work we will have lost more due to our mistake of raising the flop being compounded by a larger bluff on the turn (see above).

I personally believe that based on all of this, whereas raising the flop is the equivalent of getting out our knife and the turn bet sharpening the knife, proceeding any further is literally taking the knife to our wrists. Please do not bet/hero call this turn because it will yield massive losses in the long run. I'm pretty sure we all know why.

There may or may not be a time when we call off and are right and win. If we're being results oriented, NH. If we're being logical and actually trying to improve in poker by making good, solid and profitable decisions then we dodged a massive bullet a lost about $1,125 Sklansky Bucks by making this play.

Thanks for all the input, help me understand this consensus on flop action of call as it is obviously very different from my flop thoughts.

2 checks and Villain's smallish cbet is not indicative of great strength on such a coordinated flop. I think villain is going to size higher a lot with overpairs. I think >50% of the time we have the best hand when action gets to us. However our hand basically can't improve while 3/4ths of the deck on the turn is bad for us.

If I call the 2 limpers are going to be getting great value to call with all sorts of bottom pair, gutters etc much of which can improve past me on turn. Basically only non heart 2-5 are good for me.

By raising if one of the initial limpers is really strong (say trapping set or 2 pair), I think they will almost always put in another big raise and I can easily get away from top top for the minimum. However by raising I think I fold out a lot of the more crappy hands/draws by the limpers since they have to worry about the original raiser. This is a specific spot I want worse hands to fold as my hand is much less likely to improve than a callers hand.

The flop raise is designed to A) Get the limpers to tip their hand now or get out and B) Sieze initiative in-position from the PF raiser given the weak c-bet sizing. I never expect the PF raiser to fold to the smallish flop raise with overs/decent draws. I do expect often with board texture that if he happens to have JJ+ that he will immediately 3 bet the flop given wetness and again I can escape cheaply.

On the flop I think I can easily be slightly ahead (more than half the time IMO) or way way behind with almost no outs. I need to try to sort out which it is while pot is small and I think folding top top to a small cbet on a normal raise flop is super weak. Plus added benefit of seizing initiative and increasing chance of villain slowing down on turn/river. If I was OOP it is a totally different story.

Obviously by consensus my line of thinking above on flop is wrong, but I'd like more details as to why. Going 3-4 handed to turn without positional initiative when the whole deck is bad for us seems bad bad.

Is initiative a thing?

Seems like you're raising for information.

Without a specific read, interpreting a cbet sizing when shot-taking seems wrong to me. Villain is cbetting 4-handed on one of the worst cbet bluff boards possible. I'm gonna assume there is a lot of strength in his range. The other 2 players "checked to the raiser", so they could have big hands as well.

I guess my thoughts are that in a 4 handed pot with top/ok on that board, you should be trying your best to get to showdown as cheaply as possible without improving. Your raise serves only to not do this and turns your hand into a bluff, and one that you likely will need to follow up on at least once more to get through. Basically, you are risking a ton of $ to win a pot that frankly you shouldn't be all that interested in anymore post flop given your holding.

I can argue either way pre whether a flat or a 3! is best. For someone taking a shot though, I think flatting is much better but I lean passive more often than not.

****Results****

Pre Flop

EP Limps
Villain ($8-10k) in MP raises to $40 (standard table open)
Hero ($1700)in CO calls $40 with A10
BB & EP limper call and 4 ways to flop

Flop = $165 - 1097

Checks to villain who bets $65 (averagish c-bet sizing)
Hero raises to $175
BB & EP limper fold
Villain calls

Turn = $515 - 10974

Villain checks
Hero bets $275
Villain shoves for my remaining $1,200 behind after the $275
Hero calls for remaining stack

River = $3,400 all in - 109748


Villain shows KJ for winning rivered straight (he was semibluffing with double gutter no heart)


Thoughts

Thanks all, seems the consensus was to play both the flop and turn more passively to try to get to cheap showdown or fold. Seems as if especially folks recommended a turn check-back, appreciate the discussion. I'll share my thoughts at the time.

Pre-Flop
A10 was just under my 3! range here, probably would have 3! AJsuited. I had 3! in the last 2 orbits (with QQ not shown) and felt I was likely getting a call here and not a hand I feel great it in a 3! flop post flop. Probably would have 3! if I didn't have an image that was slightly more aggressive than I was actually playing already.

Flop
My flop raise was intended specifically to get the 2 EP checkers to define their hand or (hopefully) get to HU with PFR. I think both EP have to fold with PFR behind unless they are extremely strong in which case I am done with the hand much cheaper than on turn or river. I felt a call behind would cause both EP players to call with any floaty garbage and I would essentially be giving up the hand on every turn card even though likely ahead.

Sizing was too small, I expected the PFR to 3!shove flop with an overpair and I expected him to call 90%+ with overcards so smaller sizing seemed to be ok. But not good for balancing, should have been probably $225 or so if I raised.

Turn
When villain checks I felt strongly at first that I was either still ahead (villain with overs floating flop) or villain had hit a flush. If the former I wanted to bet to charge specifically overs with a single heart and a gutter (which I felt was the most likely hand for him to have). If villain already had a flush my plan was to fold to a raise or fold if villain led river. I felt leading for $275 was the cheapest way to get out of the hand while also not letting villain hit river for free.

Turn Call Off
When I bet $275 my plan was to fold to a raise or fold to a call and villain river lead. Villains shoving turn for another $1300 threw me for a loop. It was an abnormal bet at the table. At the end of the day I settled on a call because of the following (whether right or wrong lol)

A) Bet sizing is polarizing

B) Villain is never shoving an overpair here (would have likely bet larger on flop, 3! flop, or only called turn)

C) I have flushes in my range so villain is very unlikely to have a set or 2 pair as either likely would have 3! flop due to wetness or at least play turn more defensively than a shove

D) Really felt it came down to made flushes or overcard semi-bluffs. Was very close in my head. At the end I felt villain has to think I will only call this bet size with a flush or maybe a set so why raise so much on the turn? Raise smaller, or call and lead river seems better if he thinks I am really strong.

E) Felt slightly more likely the bet was made to blow me off a 1 pair + gutter type hand and with the amount already in there I settled on a call


Sucked to lose the big hand on the river, but oh well.

Thanks for all the advice, sounds like about everybody thinks I played it bad and I'll take that to heart for the next similar situation!

Thanks for the write up, OP.

No wonder the other players were joking around with V. Shoving the turn with KxJx is beyond epic spew. If he had KhJx, then the hand becomes much more interesting.

nice write-up OP. one of the challenges of shot taking can be reads. the feedback you got assumed a more competent Villain, not one full of gambol.

a pot sized x/r ott would be to 1340, so a shove of 1475 shouldn't have caused any reason to analyze the sizing the way that you did. he could x/r small which makes little sense, or x/r shove as he did.

if you actually sensed that the villain wanted you to fold, kudos, up to you to figure out if you just got lucky (followed by unlucky)