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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
If river is a c/f, why don't we check the turn and b/f the river? Keeps more of villain's range in the hand that will call 1 final bet on the river but won't call the turn with worse because of the threat of another bet on the river ("leverage").
C/c turn and b/fing river is an interesting suggestion. It disguises our TPTK and may possible induce a bluff on a great bluff card from an extra-aggro player (this one is not though). Yet.. there are disadvantages, by betting ourselves we can set the price, in this case bet small enough not to bloat the pot too much. If we check, he controls the sizing and he may bet 2/3 or pot which we don't really want in terms of pot control. Also, b/fing turn allows us to safely fold to a raise and avoiding losing more OTR while simply c/cing sets us up to lose more OTR. If we check turn, he's not checking back with his flush. I mean very rarely. In general whenever I can b/f instead of c/c I prefer that. I feel it gives me more control in the hand. Whenever I know that I would check/call - I just bet myself. It also allows me to win with the worse hand sometimes while c/c does not.
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I don't play 5/10, but I have a hard time believing 5/10 is a game where you can get 3 streets of value with TPTK.
You won't get 3 streets of "fat" (big bets) value from good players. But you can sometimes get let's say 2 streets of fat value and 1 street of thin value. The point of thin value to me is as much being able to easily fold to a raise than actually getting that small size value. If we check river and he bets reasonably big - it's a bad spot. B/fing avoids it. I probably should've bet river even smaller than $400, maybe $300.
As to what we can get value OTT - AQ, AJ, JTs, T9s. And yes, AQ and AJ are in his 3b flat range for sure.
OTR... we're basically losing to TT, 5x and flushes. I think not many 5s in his range (but I was wrong apparently) and 5x is hard to flop, TT even harder. Ad reduces flush probability. Yes, we're not beating much but the stuff that beats us is unlikely. On the other hand he's not floating 2 streets to take it away OTR, especially in a 3-bet pot.
So.... I think AQ/AJ still may call a small river bet. But... given the action there's more stuff that beats us even though it's unlikely. So c/f OTR may be better than small b/f OTR. Not an easy fold OTR by any means though imo. I still like my b/f OTT and the sizing I used. I may have cost myself $400 by not c/fing river but besides that I like how I played the hand.
Last edited by Olaff; 10-27-2014 at 02:46 PM.