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Old 07-11-2018, 07:08 PM   #1
Discretion
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Live 2/5 I'm tight

Live 2/5. Villain in the hand is solid player, definitely views me as being on the tighter side. Other villain (who flatted pre) also views me as very tight. 650 effective.

Main villain opens to 20 UTG (opens pretty loosely). Other villain calls. I'm in SB with 5s6s. I 3bet to 80, main villain calls other folds. Pot 185.

Flop AT5r.
I bet 75, villain calls. Pot 335.

Turn 6 (brings club flush draw).

I bet 150, villain calls. Pot 635.

River Qo. Hero? 350 behind

On the river I could jam to induce a call from AK, check to try and catch bluffs? though there are virtually no bluffs here. So if I am to check I would probably going to check fold.

On previous streets my 3bet pre was because it would look quite strong coming against a UTG raiser. I've noticed from history that he overfolds to 3bets especially against aggressive players (which is what I am in his mind) so I expect his range pre to be 88+ AQo+ AJs+ (3betting QQ+ and sometimes AK) though he can flat ATs sometimes. On the flop, I expect him to fold most pocket pairs. On the turn, I think he would fold any pocket pairs he got sticky with and maybe even AJ once in a while. Thus, on the river, what would you do?
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:17 PM   #2
matzah_ball
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

Fold pre

No idea wtf to do on flop

Jam now
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:20 PM   #3
Viral25
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

OP puts "i'm tight" in the thread title but somehow 3bets an solid UTG opener from the worst position with 6 high? Pretty spewy imo.
3bet sizing is too small also, it should be 100-110.

Flop is fine, turn needs to be bigger. It will make for awkward stacks on the river but we can get more value from Ax and at the same time protect from getting counterfitted.

AP, river might be a x/f but it gonna be close.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:27 PM   #4
Discretion
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25 View Post
OP puts "i'm tight" in the thread title but somehow 3bets an solid UTG opener from the worst position with 6 high? Pretty spewy imo.
3bet sizing is too small also, it should be 100-110.

Flop is fine, turn needs to be bigger. It will make for awkward stacks on the river but we can get more value from Ax and at the same time protect from getting counterfitted.

AP, river might be a x/f but it gonna be close.
I'm definitely not tight but my image is tight. I have a hand that plays very well against a 3bet calling range vs two opponents who are giving me a ton of respect. Plus, UTG has shown a history of opening light. if there was a time to 3bet bluff, it would be now. I agree that sizing should be bigger. I should've made it 100. Also, folding pre is 100% fine to do. Internal randomizer+ situation said that this was a great time to 3bet
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:40 PM   #5
setintostraight
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

Title should have said "I have tight image".

AP, only play on the river is to jam. Don't think anything else is close.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:42 PM   #6
Viral25
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

^Then 3bet with A5s, AJo, JTs, etc. Plenty of hands too choose from. I'm not sure why you think 65s plays well vs an UTG range compared to those hands. Specially if UTG has some looser openings.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:30 PM   #7
MikeStarr
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

You showed a lack of "Discretion" in this hand.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:41 PM   #8
BIoodRose
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

We should be folding hands like this from the sb. It is ok to mix in a squeeze with a hand like this as a bluff to balance out our value hands, however it is much better to do that in the co or button and with a hand like A5s where we block AA and AK.

AP, we only have 1 move, jam.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:03 PM   #9
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

I think a 3bet here, with a spec OOP, is way better than flatting at 130bb's.

However, When an UTG raiser gets 3b by a tight player and STILL calls, we need to remember we were 3bet bluffing and he is pretty strong. Also, IMO trying to exploit a solid player is not highest EV situation; concentrate on the bad players.

AP, You hit a miracle turn and should definitely size up vs V who is pretty inelastic on this board.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:08 PM   #10
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

Quote:
Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post
Title should have said "I have tight image".

AP, only play on the river is to jam. Don't think anything else is close.
He thinks that a jam may be too thin, and in reality it may be -ev against villains call range. Itís at least worth discussing imo..
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:19 PM   #11
BIoodRose
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

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Originally Posted by lalaLove View Post
He thinks that a jam may be too thin, and in reality it may be -ev against villains call range. Itís at least worth discussing imo..
I think any time we bet, against solely the villain's calling range, a lot of the hands will be -ev. However against a merged folding and calling range it might be +ev.

As the bettor though, we have the choice for how wide we want to keep the calling range to play with this -/+ev situation. We do this through our bet sizing.

If we are just thinking about sizing, then we should first ask what our own perceived range is. Do we have many bluffs? We probably don't have too much given the flop. If A on board isn't club, we are less likely to be bluffing. The main issue is we have around 50% pot left behind, there is not much questions we can ask since we aren't deep enough anyways.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:21 PM   #12
HomelessPizza
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

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Originally Posted by lalaLove View Post
He thinks that a jam may be too thin, and in reality it may be -ev against villains call range. Itís at least worth discussing imo..
True, but there are really no busted draws for V to be stabbing at if he check OTR (also V is solid and likely checks back AK,AJ).

Therefore, since we are never folding for the price we would get if V jammed, I think it's better for us to jam ourselves so we don't lose value from AK, AJ, etc
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:57 PM   #13
Man of Means
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25 View Post
OP puts "i'm tight" in the thread title but somehow 3bets an solid UTG opener from the worst position with 6 high? Pretty spewy imo.
Yeah, preflop is totally off the map. We do have "villain opens light" but he's probably positionally aware, right?

Once you get called and luckbox the turn, time to start pouring money in.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:20 PM   #14
mdelore
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

If you're going to do this pre go big to like $120. I actually don't even hate it that much as a once in a while play if UTG is opening most pockets and AJ, KQ etc. Still not the best line in a vacuum but you probably know that. Props for posting this hand on llsnl.

Flop bet is ok.

Turn I kind of like an all in. The only thing I think you are losing to is TT and Ax has quite a few outs against you. AK probably is going to call. AQ maybe maybe not.

AP river is fugly just c/f. AJ isn't going to magically come in with a bet and you lose to everything else.

Edit: forgot about his AK, kind of ****ty but I don't think he finds value here. Could definitely be wrong though. Should have shoved turn. Doubt he is finding a call with AK for another 345.

Last edited by mdelore; 07-11-2018 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:42 PM   #15
Koss
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

I've seen worse pre-flop 3-bets, but I'm not fan. Maybe I'm results oriented, but so many time I've tried to 3! light without an Ace blocker I've gotten burned, to the point that I usually choose Ax (usually sooted) hands for my light 3-bets.

Flop bet looks fine here.

The turn is awkward. You've have two reasonable options IMO. 1/2ish pot turn and jam river, or overbet jam turn. But a disguised 2-pair in a 3-bet pot with 125BB stacks and no big draws coming in, I think your stack needs to end up in the middle.

Barring the questionable 3! pre, I think you played it fine assuming you jammed river.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:07 AM   #16
Discretion
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

This is probably not the right forum to have this discussion but in my opinion I think that 56s > A5s as a 3bet.
A5s doesn't even have that much more equity than 56s. With A5s, I have around 34.2% equity against a range of 88-QQ, KQs, AJs+, AQo+ which I think is pretty good estimate of what he's calling with (with 56s I have 32.3%). The main problem is, I feel like with A5s when I do hit it (in the form of getting my A), I don't realize my equity enough while if I win with 56s, when I hit my 2 pair, trips, straight, or flush, my opponent will think that the board doesn't hit my range and will have a greater chance of paying me off.
A better hand to 3bet with would definitely be a bigger suited connector like 89s-JQs. But it's difficult to get such a hand in a situation as good as this one when I feel like my opponents are overfolding. Obviously when I get called I know I'm in a very -ev spot but I felt like I had a decent amount of fold equity.
Also my sizing is ****.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:15 AM   #17
BIoodRose
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discretion View Post
This is probably not the right forum to have this discussion but in my opinion I think that 56s > A5s as a 3bet.
A5s doesn't even have that much more equity than 56s. With A5s, I have around 34.2% equity against a range of 88-QQ, KQs, AJs+, AQo+ which I think is pretty good estimate of what he's calling with (with 56s I have 32.3%). The main problem is, I feel like with A5s when I do hit it (in the form of getting my A), I don't realize my equity enough while if I win with 56s, when I hit my 2 pair, trips, straight, or flush, my opponent will think that the board doesn't hit my range and will have a greater chance of paying me off.
A better hand to 3bet with would definitely be a bigger suited connector like 89s-JQs. But it's difficult to get such a hand in a situation as good as this one when I feel like my opponents are overfolding. Obviously when I get called I know I'm in a very -ev spot but I felt like I had a decent amount of fold equity.
Also my sizing is ****.


A5s and 56s arenít 3bet for value hands, you are mainly looking for folds and as a bluff to balance your range when you do have a hand like AA KK AK QQ etc. A5s blocks AA and AK, 5-6 has no removal whatsoever. There are 3bets for values and for bluffs, we need to be clear on that.


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Old 07-12-2018, 09:51 AM   #18
Koss
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

Exactly. When you 3 bet with an ace you cut the chances someone has AA in half. Suited connectors are still good squeeze hands, and maybe its my recency bias, but the last few times ive 3bet bluffed without an ace ive been 4bet by AA and had to fold.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:37 AM   #19
samo
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

Much higher pre since you are oop. Picking up the dead $ is fine, especially if rake-free.

Flop - ok, continuing with 3-b PFR. Good sizing.
Turn - much higher for value.
River - I'd expect AT to have raised by now. If he rivered a Q, bad luck. I'd lean towards a jam, but really depends on live read. X/F may be totally fine also, very V dependent.

Was the Ac on the flop?
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:50 AM   #20
shorn7
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Re: Live 2/5 I'm tight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss View Post
I've seen worse pre-flop 3-bets, but I'm not fan. Maybe I'm results oriented, but so many time I've tried to 3! light without an Ace blocker I've gotten burned, to the point that I usually choose Ax (usually sooted) hands for my light 3-bets.

Flop bet looks fine here.

The turn is awkward. You've have two reasonable options IMO. 1/2ish pot turn and jam river, or overbet jam turn. But a disguised 2-pair in a 3-bet pot with 125BB stacks and no big draws coming in, I think your stack needs to end up in the middle.

Barring the questionable 3! pre, I think you played it fine assuming you jammed river.
Ditto on pre, but mostly the turn piece. Ship is ridiculously +EV given our specific holding.
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